Catalonia by ratna https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc discuss the legality of Catolonia's unilateral declaration of self-determination according to international law perspective en-us 2017-11-08 01:25:37 UTC 2017-11-19 14:45:31 UTC hello@padlet.com Nur Atiqah binti Baharudin 248161 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205567355 The Catalan independence referendum of 2017, alsoi known by the numeronym 1-0 (for '1 October') in Spanish and Catalan media, was an independence referendum held on 1 October 2017 in the Spanish autonomous community of Catalonia, passed by the Parliament of Catalonia and called by the Generalitat de Catalunya. It was declared illegal on 7 September 2017 and suspended by the Constitutional Court of Spain after a request from the Spanish government, who declared it a breach of the Spanish Constitution of 1978. Additionally, in early Septermber the High Court of Justice of Catalonia had issued orders to the police to try to prevent it, including the detention of various persons responsible for its preparation. Due to the many irregularities int the administration of the vote (with people being able to vote more than once in some places despite organizers claims to the contrary and on whether where was any control about it), as well as to the use of force by the National Police and Civil Guard, international observers invited by the Generalitat declared that the referendum failed to meet the minimum international standards for elections. 

]]> 2017-11-10 03:14:42 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205567355 245977 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205584087 Catalonia is not a state that are recognize by other states even in 'de jure' or in 'de facto' and still did not recognized by any states even though it has been declared its independence on 27 October 2017, three days ago. The Catalonia 's declaration was strongly opposed by the Spain Government. To begins with, Catalonia does not even have its own military to control over its territory to prevent the Spanish government from entering. Then, it is illegal for Catalonia to be independence state as territory is an important elements that determined the right to self-determination. Moreover, the crisis is caused by the poor leadership decision making. Carles Puidgemont, the head government of Catalonia does not respect Spain's constitution, the court's decision and the views of Catalonia's citizen who do not agree to the separation by non-democratic referendum. Thus, it appears that international law does not support the equation of the right to self-determination of people with the right to secede.]]> 2017-11-10 07:06:33 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205584087 ema suzana 247730 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205591610 in October 27th Catalonia people have declare themselves independent. Declaring independent is not only criteria to becoming a nation. there a lot of thing to view and they need to restructure everything to become a state. by the law the they must been recognized by other state called constitutional and declarative theory in order to be a state. if Catalonia be recognized by enough state and do diplomatic relation and yes Catalonia can been  called as state.
 ]]> 2017-11-10 07:51:47 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205591610 247493 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205604745 On 27th October 2017, Catalonia has declared its independence. Within the days of declaration, Catalonia has not been recognized as a legitimate state. In this case, it is not a state even by “de jure” or “de facto”. Even all the major power including the US, Russia and China do not recognize Catalonia. Catalonia has no military which can control its area to prevent the entry of the Spanish government. Sentiment for self-determination Catalonia is not something new, the Catalonia anthem has planted a dissatisfaction nature to Spanish. That's why if Carles Puigdemont declared independence, it was called Catalan Republic not Catalonia republic, as well as showing this new republic to support only Catalan people.

]]> 2017-11-10 08:45:41 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205604745 RABIATUL QISTINA 247966 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205618585 Catalonia is an autonomous community of Spain located on the northeastern extremity of the Liberian Peninsula. The independence referendum of Catalonia 2017 also known as 1-0 in Spanish and Catalonia media is a referendum or independence poll led by Generalitat Catalonia and passed by the Catalonia Parliament but it was declared illegally on 6 September 2017 and was suspended by Spanish Constitutional Court as it violates the Spanish Constitution. Catalonia is not a ‘de jure’ or ‘de facto’ country. Three days after Catalonia proclaimed independent, there is no country that recognizes Catalonia. In de facto, Catalonia has no military that can control its area to prevent the Spanish government from entering, so it has no control over its territory. Catalonia proved the existence of ‘colonialism’, ‘foreign invasion’ or ‘gross discrimination and abuse of human rights determination’. The head of the government of Catalonia, Carles Puidgemont does not respect the Constitution the Court’s decision and partial views of the Catalonian people who do not support separation by holding a transparent and non-democratic referendum. 

]]> 2017-11-10 09:42:54 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205618585 247719 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205757780 Democratic legitimacy at Catalan and Spanish levels may both be legitimate, even though the principle of external preference limits the capacity of Spain to permanently oppose the democratic choice of Catalonia. However, when conflicting political legitimacies compete, there is a duty for democratic authorities to negotiate. Further, in a genuine liberal democracy, rule of law may not construct democratic legitimacy, nor the other way around.
Therefore, in a modern democratic State, rule of law and democratic legitimacy need to be reconciled and cannot in the long term remain opposed. In the context of a vote of self-determination, as is the case, the national framework will naturally be inappropriate because the existing democratic processes to address the issue did not allow for a solution or a process to emerge. A change of scale thus appears necessary by justifying either locally or internationally the organization of a referendum.  Thus, if Spanish national Authorities deny the right to Catalonia to negotiate its Right to Decide within the Spanish political framework, then the only path left for Catalonia’s Authorities is the call for a self-determination referendum. ]]> 2017-11-10 16:56:42 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205757780 246087 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205992577 ·         The Catalan authorities making referendum then Spanish security forces attacked at the time. So, the Spain’s government was abuses the Article 73(a) of the UN Charter. Which stated “to ensure, with due respect for the culture of the peoples concerned, their political, economic, social and educational advancement, their just treatment and their protection against abuses”. So Catalonia have the right to self-determination.]]> 2017-11-12 15:50:35 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205992577 246087 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205992631 ·         To become a state needs to fulfill four element, sovereignty, define territory (border), population and into relation (recognition). But Catalonia did not recognize by the European countries including the Great Britain and the United States.]]> 2017-11-12 15:51:06 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205992631 247044 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205993075 Like Scotland, Catalonia want their own independences because they feel that they can support their own economy. But this cannot be a reason for they ask for independence. They also cannot prove the existence of colonialism, foreign invasion, gross discrimination or abuse of human rights that done by Spain against them. Catalonia has been granted autonomous status, and the cause of the dispute between Madrid and Barcelona this time is a tax issue that can actually be negotiated. So the status for Catalonia now is more to secessionist state. In international law, there have 2 ways for Catalonia become a state, which by law or by fact. By law, the entity that call as state, should to recognize by sovereign state. This principle has been adopted since 1648 “Peace of Westphalia” and was buried in the “Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States’ in 1933. But in Catalonia case, Catalonia not a state in law or fact way. In fact ways, Catalonia don’t have its own troops or militia that can control its area to prevent the entry of the Spanish government, so it has no control over its territory.

]]> 2017-11-12 15:54:47 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/205993075 247235 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206544158 By definition, self-determination present a challenge to the host state. to accept that there is a right of self-determination under IL but the claim that this right is conditional on host state consent.
The legitimacy of any group's secessionist claim has to determined by an array of factors. These include the political coherence of the entity seeking independence and the degree of support the move has among citizens of the region that would be secede. The viability if the entity as an independent state and the impact of secession of regional and international peace and stability are also key questions. So while opposition to Catalan independence based on these factors may be credible.]]> 2017-11-14 01:34:07 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206544158 247235 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206545215 Catalonia is different given the Spanish government’s refusal to allow a referendum to take place. But this poses a fundamental question: is a host state’s approval essential if a country is to declare independence? The answer must be no, because to argue otherwise is contradictory and clashes both with international law and common sense. 
Arguing about the self-determination of Catalan, it is impermissible because it is illegal under the Spanish constitution can't be as independent state.]]> 2017-11-14 01:40:22 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206545215 245094 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206566930 Catalonia’s unilateral declaration is illegal because a territory cannot gain independence if its original state, Spain is not under colonization. According to Constitutional Court of Spain any such referendum would be illegal as it violates the Spanish Constitution of 1978. Although the Catalion declare independence under the international law principle of self-determination it is uneffective as only the non-self governing territories can achieve. Moreover to become a state it should be recognize by other sovereign states. Besides it also needs to fulfill four elements to become a state where it can control its own territory.]]> 2017-11-14 04:07:18 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206566930 247534 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206570048 To be a state, it should possess the qualifications which is a permanent population, a defined territory, government and  capacity to enter into relations with the other states. Catalonia meet all the qualifications except for the capacity to enter into relations with other state. How can Catalonia have a relations with other states when it did not recognize by the European.]]> 2017-11-14 04:32:27 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206570048 247232 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206590372 The right of self-determination doesn’t apply to cases like Catalonia. The right to self-determination was born and evolved basically to be applied to former colonies, and that’s not the case with Catalonia. They certainly concede that they’re not legal according to the Spanish constitution and legal system. So, they accept that these moves are illegal. So, the independence movement is aware that they are launching a sort of rebellion. They are aware of that. They don’t try to masquerade or try to deceive the people about this. They are launching a rebellion, and the most important thing about rebellions is not whether they are legal because, by definition, they are not. The most important thing is whether this rebellion is legitimate. Since there was not a majority of Catalans who gave support to this rebellion it could be said it is not legitimate. To justify and legitimize a rebellion you need more than just 50 + 1% of the people. You need a vast majority of people wanting it. And all the data show that there was no such majority.]]> 2017-11-14 07:23:37 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206590372 247232 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206591016 In international law self-determination is the right of “all peoples” to “freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social, and cultural development”. Catalonia has the right of self-determination, a right which could legitimize an eventual declaration of independence. Catalonia could legitimately appeal to the right to self-determination to declare independence by the fact that its political status is an imposed one and that it cannot develop itself freely within Spain. Moreover, Catalonia can easily meet the classical, objective criteria for statehood. It has a clearly defined territory of some 32,000 sq km, featuring clearly defined boundaries. Its stable population numbers around 7.5 million, far in excess of many recently independent states in Europe and beyond. It is the most economically viable region when compared to other parts of Spain with an economy of similar size to Finland and Portugal. Even under autonomy within Spain, Catalonia has exhibited most of the functions of effective government. Catalonia has generated a substantive transitional law, to apply pending the adoption of a new constitution once independence proceeds. That law would assign all public powers to the new state, including foreign affairs powers (‘capacity to enter into international relations’). Hence, Catalonia is, at least potentially, capable of statehood.

]]> 2017-11-14 07:27:30 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206591016 246613 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206635158 The right to self-determination is applicable for all people but was limited in its application to colonized people. Meanwhile, secession only applied in the case of decolonization and perhaps, occupation. Other than these two rare conditions, international law does not affirmatively authorize groups to seek secession.]]> 2017-11-14 10:18:42 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206635158 244988 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206665339 According to the issue, Catalonia wanted to split away from the federal government of Spain in order to establish an independent State. Hence, the Catalans held out a referendum in October which resulted in a Yes vote of 90% with turnout of 43% (BBC News, 2017). However, the Spanish constitutional court refused to accept the referendum, and this caused riot between the Spanish govt. and the Catalans. Apparently, the Catalans holds on the principle of self-determination where all peoples have the right to freely determine their political status and to pursue economic, social and cultural development (Allen, 2013). This correlates with Article 1 (1) in International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights which was adopted in UNGA 1966. However, till this day, international law does not hold unilateral declaration is legal or illegal (Kosovo Declaration - BBC News, 2008). Nevertheless, it will not endorse the actions of a group that trying to secede until the entity has established itself effectively (Allen, 2013). In general, the right of self-determination is an internal right to be exercised by groups within the limits of a State. Hence, in this case, it is illegal since the international law will not entertain the newly-form government or state till the Catalans has establish the independent state effectively with mutual agreements with the Spanish government.]]> 2017-11-14 12:15:58 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206665339 Berita Awani https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206674081 https://youtu.be/KlSM93ESAk0]]> 2017-11-14 12:47:39 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206674081 247151 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206772710 The self determination of Catalonia is accepted by the Spain and plus it did happen according as prominently embodied in Article I of the Charter of the United Nations]]> 2017-11-14 15:31:03 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206772710 247151 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206779040 The reason why the self determination of catalonia is illegal is because it is not accepted by the European states living it in a state as not being recognised as a state because to be a state either constuctive or declarative. Therefore, this self determination of Catalonia is illegal ..... :)]]> 2017-11-14 15:40:19 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206779040 247151 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206785601 The self determination action is illegal because firstly, to be a state we have to be recognised as a state by other big powers, as in Catalonia's case Europe powers do not want to recognise it as a state. Secondly, according to the spain constitution it is illegal because the constitution only sees one subject of sovereignity which is the whole of spain but this action of self determination will separate that and make the constitution look week

]]> 2017-11-14 15:49:20 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206785601 248238 aimiatiqah97 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206801495 Catalonia has met all 4 characteristic of statehood that were mentioned in art 1 of montevideo convention. The fact is that “the people of Catalonia” is recognized as a distinct political collective was also one of the reason.   In a similar way that The Spanish Constitution itself, the Catalan Statute of Autonomy defines Catalonia as a “nationality” and states that the powers of the Catalan public institutions emanate directly from the Catalan people.  Next, the resolutions passed in 1989, 1998, 2010, and 2011. These decisions have never been challenge and, according to the most recent doctrines of the Spanish Constitutional Court, are capable of having political and legal effects.  Therefore, it is legal. ]]> 2017-11-14 16:11:20 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206801495 248438 aimiatiqah97 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206815464 It is illegal because according to Supreme court of canada 1988, self-determination is where a definable group is denied meaningful access to government to pursue their political, economic, social and cultural development. In this situation, Spain has allow the Catalan government powers over education, health, culture, urban development and the environment. So, it indicates that from the view point of international law, the people of Catalonia do not have a right to independence. ]]> 2017-11-14 16:32:15 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206815464 245167 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206822872 It is illegal because, under present international law, the following four factors are relevant to answering the question of whether a “people” may achieve independence. These factors are location, the will to exist, denial of “internal” self-determination, and brutal oppression. The fourth concept, brutal oppression, establishes secession as the remedial aspect of self-determination. Spain as a sovereign nation has a right under international law to maintain its “territorial integrity” as set forth in the UN Charter. Internal self-determination is met by a people’s pursuit of political, economic, social, and cultural development within the framework of the existing state. Catalonia cannot claim a right to independence merely by refusing to negotiate terms of participation with the existing state. Feeling slighted, or even marginally excluded from the process is not sufficient to interfere with Spain’s right to its territorial integrity.]]> 2017-11-14 16:43:59 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206822872 244681 mimiwaznah https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206856709               The Catalonia is illegally withdraw from the Spain territory because it was not approved by the government of Spain. The current government has the right to abandon such request because Catalonia is still binding under the parliamentary monarchy of Spain on that timevwhich by means the head of government, President of the Generalitat of Catalonia that was appointed by the monarch of Spain has to obey the decision made by the the head of state and head of government of Spain. Yes it is undeniable that this request gained the majority votes. However, the head of state has the capacity to act according to his discretionary. 
          In addition, in order to have an independent state that is free from the current ruler, it must have the proceedings in the federal court for example the Spanish High Court must have to decide whether Catalonia get its independence or not according to the facts and evidence provided. 

          Catalonia also can’t achieve its dependence because it is not recognise by the European countries and this explanation is categorised under the constitutive theory of recognition of a state. A state is seen as a state through the acknowledgement of nation community. The unrecognition of Catalonia among the European countries will harm this territory in the context of economic development and security because the European Union promised the biggest benefits in free trade area economic and will protect the peace and wellbeing of its member. 

The will of the people through self- determination is legitimate in the international law perspective but the territorial sovereignty could have more powerful decision than that those theories sometimes. Therefore, regarding to my justification above, Catalonia secession is illegal. 

 

]]> 2017-11-14 17:36:56 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206856709 244847 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206861993  t the right of self-determination doesn’t apply to cases like Catalonia. The right to self-determination was born and evolved basically to be applied to former colonies, and that’s not the case with Catalonia… ]]> 2017-11-14 17:45:19 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206861993 248403 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206871235 Catalonia already declared independence, but don't have any country recognizes Catalonia as state. The example country not recognized Catalonia is German, France, United State, Russia and China. Throught 'de facto', Catalonia don't have enought military power to protect themself . It tough to Catalonia to prove that have "colonialism", "foreign invasion" or "gross discriminition and abuse of Human Right" which is the reason for the claim "self-determintion".]]> 2017-11-14 18:01:52 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206871235 244847 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206872926 Yes, probably not an independence “de jure” (Catalunya being recognised internationally as an independent country) 
but surely “de facto”, with an independent legal system, its own budget, education, police, health system, social security and what it is the most important issue, social security and all tax collection.

Once Catalonian Government collects taxes, and decides how to spend them, and education and police are shielded from Spanish interference, Catalonia will be independent.

]]> 2017-11-14 18:05:01 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206872926 245925 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206901955 Catalonia is a wealthy religion of 7.5 million people in north-eastern Spain, has its own language and culture. It also has a high degree of autonomy, but still not being recognised as a separate nation under Spanish constitution. On 27th October 2017, Catalonia has declared their own independence but did not recognised by Spain Government and some great power which is Great Britain and US.  This is because to become a state, Catalonia must be recognised by other state. Thus, a state must have a diplomatic relation to protect their national interest. No country can survive alone and isolation nowadays. That is why it is hard for Catalonia to become a State. How can Catalonia become a state if it did not have its own military to control their territory from the entering of Spain Government. So, it is illegal for Catalonia to become a state. 

]]> 2017-11-14 18:50:26 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206901955 244681 mimiwaznah https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206939336                The Catalonia deserve to be independent as it has the right of self-determination to withdraw from the Spain territory like what has been stated in the both the ICCPR (International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights) and the ICESCR (International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights) included the right of self-determination in their Common Article 1. This article stipulates that “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development”.

             Although Catalonia is only a small part of Spain, but one quarter of the GDP of Spain is contributed by Catalonia and two third of of Catalonia's foreign exports go to the EU. This proved that Catalonia has the potential to establish its own territory and many countries will want to have relation with Catalonia because the rich of resources it has. The world community will treat the Catalonia as important as other country because the ability of this boundary to accelerate its economic growth. The international area would definitely recognise Catalonia as a new state member because of this factor. 

          The majority vote in the parliament regarding to the separation of Catalonia also proved that Catalonia is allowed to withdraw from Spain but the disagreement of the government of Spain is what matter now. Every citizens have to be treated in justice under what has been stated in the UN human rights commissions. The pro-independence general strike in Catalonia brought chaos to dozens of the regions’ roads as protesters blocked traffic with sit-down protests. The opposing of secession of Catalonia has arise the protestant group to show their anger and this could harm the innocent people around if they go wild out of sudden. 

 

]]> 2017-11-14 19:50:58 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/206939336 246119 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/207013287 For me, it is illegal because it does not recognise by other state. 

]]> 2017-11-15 00:31:15 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/207013287 246285 https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/208475075 Catalonian independence has historical roots but Catalon nationalist sentiment was revived after thr 1978 Constitution reinstated the regional autonomy that had been suppressed under the Franco dictatorship. International law helps to explore the question whether Catalonia should have the right yo independence. The ICJ confirmed the recognition of the light to self-determination in international law. For example, the East Timur 1995's case which stated that the principle of self-determination of people has been recognised by United Nations. ]]> 2017-11-19 14:41:16 UTC https://padlet.com/ratna/yvw0oetyvucc/wish/208475075