https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v How do Jack and Ralph represent competing aspects of human nature and human government in this chapter? Put two quotes on your “post-it” and use them to answer the question. Must include at least one SYMBOL or allegorical element. en-us 2017-02-02 07:01:26 UTC 2017-02-02 18:48:29 UTC hello@padlet.com https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151219922 "Quote" (#)
Commentary that answers the question--identify symbolic or allegorical elements as you answer the question.  How does your quote connect?

]]> 2017-02-02 17:19:20 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151219922 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151220782 Ralph is just trying to survive and be rescued from the world he's been thrown in, whilst Jack seeks to thrive on the island and does not really care about being rescued. Proof of "his is when Ralph goes off on Jack and says "there was a ship. Out there. You said you'd keep the fire going and you let it out!"(p.70) Jack's response to this is "The job was too much we needed everyone... We needed meat." (p.71) From this response to Ralph's anger you can tell that Jack doesn't really think  being rescued is as important as lasting on the island.]]> 2017-02-02 17:21:32 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151220782 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151220893 Jack and Ralph represent competing aspects of human nature and human government in this chapter by each of the two boys wanting to be the "strongest" most controlling. Jack was determined after not being able to kill the pig the first time, to kill the next one he saw. And when he finally did he was beyond excited to share his masculinity with the other boys. "I cut the pigs throat, said Jack proudly"pg 69 But while Jack was busy trying to kill the pig Ralph had seen a ship and realized the signal fire they had made was out, which was the hunters job to maintain. Ralph wants a society and becomes angered when the hunters are not doing their job. " Ralph spoke again hoarsely. He had not moved. You let the fire go out." " Pg 70 There was a ship. Out there. You said you'd keep the fire going and you let it out!" pg 70]]> 2017-02-02 17:21:49 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151220893 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221245 Ralph and Jack have very different ideas of how the island should be run, and how order should be established. 
"'There was a ship. Out there. You said you'd keep the fire going and you let it out!'" (70) Jack is concerned only about killing the pig, and nothing else, including order on the island. He completely ignores Ralph's point of view, and is only trying accomplish what he believes needs to be done. Jack also feels that he has to prove himself. This is shown when he breaks piggy's glasses, after the rest of the boys laughed when he punched piggy in the stomach. He is descending to a lower level of needs than the rest of the group. Ralph is more concerned about being rescued and maintaining order. He tries to keep people accountable for what they were responsible for. He does this through the use of the conch, as well as meetings. ]]> 2017-02-02 17:22:43 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221245 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221568 Ralph represents the need to escape while Jack represents the need for masculinity. "there was a ship. Out there. you said you'd keep the fire going and you let it out!" Page 70 This shows that Ralph doesn't really care about how the other view him as long as they can get off the island. "Kill the pig, Cut her throat. Bash her in." Page 75 This shows that Jack is trying to be the lead hunter, which is a very masculine role.]]> 2017-02-02 17:23:35 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221568 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221606 Both Ralph and Jack show their will to survive, but their approaches are different. Ralph main focus is trying to survive on the island while they try to get rescued. "'There was a ship... You said you'd keep the fire going, nd you let it out!'"(70). When Ralph found out that Jack and the hunters let the fire go out he was very mad because that meant the ship wouldn't rescue them.  Jack is focused on hunting and trying to find meat so that they can survive on the island. "'We've killed a pig'...'We can light the fire again'"(69). Jack shows a lot of enthusiasm toward Ralph when he arrives because they have killed a pig, but Ralph is ad because they let the fire go out. Jack isn't worried about the fire going out, and tell Ralph that they can just light it again. Ralph then explains to Jack that there was a ship, and that he should not have let the fire go out, and that he could have gone hunting once the shelters were finished.]]> 2017-02-02 17:23:40 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221606 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221711 Ralph and Jack had two very different view points on human nature and which need is stronger. Ralph believes becoming rescued is stronger and Jack seeks out for food, not being focused on anything else. "You let the fire go out. Jack checked, vaguely irritated by this irrelevance but too happy to let it worry him." (Golding, 68). As Ralph confronted Jack about the fire becoming burned out and letting go of the boys' hope for survival Jack seems to not care and become very selfish. Jack does not show any leadership during his time of hunting a pig as he soon becomes so focused that he couldn't even respond to the kids around him. "Jack noticed nothing. He was eager, impatient, beckoning, so that Roger went to him." (Golding, 61). Jack does not show leading abilities when he can only focus on food and not the other Boys' needs around him.  ]]> 2017-02-02 17:23:58 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221711 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221779 Jack feels like he needs to be the leader so he goes out and hunts for food to try and look strong. Jack is more about trying to survive while they are on the island. "Look! We've killed a pig"(Golding 69). Jack is so excited to have killed this pig because now he feels like the leader. Where as Ralph is more humble and wants to find ways to get off of the island.  For example he is very upset when he finds out that the signal fire was out and that Jack was responsible for it because that was a way that they could get off of the island. He said "They let the bloody fire go out"(Golding 68). Ralph is struggling to find his way off of the island and it is not helping that other people are following Jacks lead because he is the one who is providing food for them. ]]> 2017-02-02 17:24:09 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221779 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221867 Jack and Ralph both have very different views on how the boys should live and how the civilization should work. Ralph wants a more civilized orderly world, but Jack wants a more savage, violent, world. Ralph is trying to figure out how they can get a passing plane or boat so they can go home when Jack has already given up hope of rescue and he's trying to set up a civilization on the island. The quote "You let the fire go out" (70) is said by Ralph to yell at Jack for letting the fire go out because the fire is one of the main things that keeps order. Jack is more violent by saying "You should have seen the blood" (70) and shows that he has more of a violent personality.]]> 2017-02-02 17:24:21 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221867 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221992 Jack is trying to prove his toughness "you should have seen the blood,"(70) while Ralph is staying practical "You let the fire go out."(69)

]]> 2017-02-02 17:24:40 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151221992 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222010 While both boys share the desire to survive their stay on the island, they have conflicting views on how they should go about doing so. "There was the brilliant world of hunting, tactics, fierce exhilaration, skill; and there was the world of longing and baffled commonsense." (71)
Jack is focused on the glory and thrill that can be found on the island, whereas Ralph has his mind set on doing what should be obvious: that they need to find a way to be rescued.

The ways they choose to garner the loyalty of the other boys is quite different, as well. When Jack makes the choice to force out an apology for letting the fire die, it made him out to be the one that was right]]> 2017-02-02 17:24:43 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222010 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222017 During chapter four, two conceptions of power begin to emerge. Jack and Ralph have very different conceptions on what power means and how they use it. Ralph is kind to the little ones and is comforting. Jack is cruel to the little ones and others. This unravels the two conceptions of power, civilization and savagery. Ralph represents civilized power and wants to handle things in an orderly manner and give people equal opportunities. Jack represents savagery and is more, every man to himself. Jack represents power as whoever holds it can act on their impulses and use it to their own advantage. "Roger led the way straight through the castles, kicking them over burying the flowers, scattering the chosen stones" (55) Jack and Roger walk right through the little ones path's because they are older and have the authority to do so with no parent to punish them for ruining the children's sand castle. Jack is a savage and is obsessed with killing, he can't seem to get enough hunting and killing of pigs. Ralph wants the civilization and order, having enough shelter and comfort for the little kids. As the chapter continues their struggle with power becomes obvious. ]]> 2017-02-02 17:24:44 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222017 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222174 "His sinewy body held up a mask that drew their eyes and appalled them. He began to dance and his laughter became a bloodthirsty snarling."(64)
This situation is representative of Jack's approach to governance and of his morality. While Ralph leads with the intention of progress, Jack plays to, and is thrilled by, others fear of him and his actions. Jack is motivated by his hunger for power and the concept of ruling over the rest of the boys, whereas Ralph is motivated by the order and group benefit brought by his leadership.

]]> 2017-02-02 17:25:05 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222174 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222195 Jack is trying to prove that he is tough and he knows what he is doing. He is hunting and he doesn't really care about getting rescued."I cut the pig's throat" said jack proudly.(#69) Here is when Ralph and Jack disagree, since there was a boat close to the island and thanks to Jack there was no smoke for they can be found. Ralph is the opposite and he is trying to get out of this island and survive."-Then you go out hunting and let out the fire-"There was a ship"(#71)  Ralph is the leader of the group and he wants to have order, but Jack is making it really hard and he just wants to show his abilities instead of helping.]]> 2017-02-02 17:25:07 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222195 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222291 "He resented , as an addition to Jack's misbehavior, this verbal trick. The fire was dead, the ship was gone. Could they not see?" (72) 
"So Ralph asserted his chieftainship and could not have chosen a better way if he had thought for days against this weapon, so indefinable and so effective, Jack was powerless and raged without knowing why. By the time the pile was built, they were on different sides of a high barrier"(73)
Jack and Ralph represent a classic struggle between chaos and order as Jack wants to embrace "savagery" while Ralph wants to stay civilized. Furthermore they also represent political ideals as Jack is a populist who only cares about being liked and doing things other people like while Ralph is a realist who wants to find the best solution to there situation rather than indulge himself and the other boys.  The weapon mentioned in the second quote is not a weapon at all, Ralph is imposing order through resistance without opposition by standing in place, that's it, just by maintaining personal order he's thwarted Jack.]]> 2017-02-02 17:25:19 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222291 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222302 Ralph is the leader of the group of boys giving him masculinity and power as well as confidence while jack is trying to prove himself and his abilities to Ralph. Ralph wants to be rescued and focuses on the essentials of rescue while Jack is trying to settle down on the island and make it a home. "I was talking about smoke! Don't you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!" #53

]]> 2017-02-02 17:25:20 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222302 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222810 Ralph is a more practical thinker as he wishes to be rescue while Jack is trying to make something of the island while showing how he can be a hunter . "They'll see our smoke"(Golding 65). This shows Ralph's thinking of being rescued is more practical than making the island more of a "home". "You and your blood, Jack Merridew! You and your hunting! We might have gone home-"(Golding 70). This shows the frustration Ralph has for Jack as he promised to keep the fire going in case a ship was to appear but instead abandoned his post to go hunt for meat. Both have different ideas of how to survive their current situation but it the matter of being rescued they have to decide which way will better them.  ]]> 2017-02-02 17:26:29 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151222810 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151223386 Jack and Ralph are very different in that Jack is trying to embrace the island and let out his inner savagery and become a hunter (Kill the pig. Cut her throata. Spill her blood) pg 69 while Ralph is trying to escape the island and stay human and civilized (They let the bloody fire go out) pg 68. Jack represents human nature of mirroring his surroundings while Ralph is representing human government]]> 2017-02-02 17:27:52 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151223386 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151223847 Jack seems to symbolize leading through example " we had to do it ", "you should have seen us" while Ralph tends to lead through commanding the children instead. this si true in society because some forms of authority lead though example while others lead though "force" 

]]> 2017-02-02 17:29:02 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151223847 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151223894 Jack and Ralph have two different ways of going about how to survive but a lot of this plays into the role of who holds the most power. Jack feels in this situation that he should assert his power by trying to act like a survivalist and goes to hunt for food. ("We needed meat." pg. 71) Ralph on the other hand wants to go the more logical way and try and get rescued by making a fire and making it very smokey for people to see it. ("They'll see our smoke." pg.66) Their way of power differs, but in this situation it is very crucial on what power is better. ]]> 2017-02-02 17:29:10 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151223894 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151224599 Jack and Ralph are constantly in conflict with their two different human natures. Jack is violent and lashes out while Ralph is calm and collected. Jack said, "'You let the fire go out'." (Golding 70) multiple times. He said it calmly, but still reflected his anger. Jack got so fed up with Ralph's anger that he lashed out at Piggy. "He took a step, and able at last to hit someone, stuck his fist into Piggy's stomach." (Golding 71). They were both dealing with their anger, one was violent and one was orderly and dignified. ]]> 2017-02-02 17:30:58 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151224599 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151224608 Both show human nature by the struggle to find a way to survive, but they both go different ways about it. Jack is focused on his toughness and how he is naturally better fit to survive, while Ralph focuses more on leaving the island and how to govern the people on it. "Ralph ran stumbling across the rocks, saved himself on the edge of the pink cliff, and screamed at the ship" Pg 68. Here Ralph is trying to benefit everyone by giving orders to save themselves from the island. It shows how he is governing the people and looking at the bigger picture. 
"Behind jack came the kids, carrying a big stake on their shoulders" Pg 68. Jack doesn't care about the group and wants to prove himself as an individual. Shows how he is the human nature part because he only cares about surviving.


]]> 2017-02-02 17:31:00 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151224608 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151225456 Ralph and Jack both want power in this chapter of the book and this leads into a dispute in aspects of human nature. Jack takes more of the tribal way of thinking like hunting and warfare while on the other side Ralph has more of a calm mentality and wants to keep thing more in a controlled order. ]]> 2017-02-02 17:32:59 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151225456 tlmorelock01 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151225654 Jack represents the violent and prideful piece of humanity where as Ralph is representative of the orderly pathway of survival. For example, when faced with the conflict of sacrificing rescue for food, Jack chooses to let out his rage and savagery on Piggy, "He took a step, and able at last to hit someone, stuck his fist into Piggy's stomach." (71). This not only shows him letting out anger in the moment, but also with the phrasing of "at last" it seems he is looking for an excuse to be violent. Ralph, on the other hand, uses his words in this situation, "'There was a ship. Out there. You said you'd keep the fire going and you let it out!'" (70). Ralph has every reason to become violent, but instead chooses to remain civil and use his words instead of his actions, unlike Jack.]]> 2017-02-02 17:33:20 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151225654 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151227830 2017-02-02 17:39:21 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151227830 https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151228241 During chapter four, two conceptions of power begin to emerge. Jack and Ralph have very different conceptions on what power means and how they use it. Ralph is kind to the little ones and is comforting. Jack is cruel to the little ones and others. This unravels the two conceptions of power, civilization and savagery. Ralph represents civilized power and wants to handle things in an orderly manner and give people equal opportunities. Jack represents savagery and is more, every man to himself. Jack represents power as whoever holds it can act on their impulses and use it to their own advantage. "Roger led the way straight through the castles, kicking them over burying the flowers, scattering the chosen stones" (55) Jack and Roger walk right through the little ones path's because they are older and have the authority to do so with no parent to punish them for ruining the children's sand castle. "Kill the pig. Cut her throat. Spill her blood." (62) Jack is a savage and is obsessed with killing, he can't seem to get enough hunting and killing of pigs. Ralph wants the civilization and order, having enough shelter and comfort for the little kids. As the chapter continues their struggle with power becomes obvious.  ]]> 2017-02-02 17:40:28 UTC https://padlet.com/bonnie_katzive/twvvefwsa23v/wish/151228241