IOCCP - CRM production discussion meetings by Maribel García-Ibáñez

Option 1: Several production centres that also certify

maribelgarciaibanez — 2022-03-08 13:07:05 UTC

Please add your thoughts/discussion items here:

Option 2: Several production centres but only one certification centre

maribelgarciaibanez — 2022-03-08 13:07:16 UTC

Please add your thoughts/discussion items here:

Need for other products

2022-03-15 04:19:42 UTC

KIM : There is a need for other reference material such as acid titrant for alkalinity titrations, buffers (mostly tris). Users have suggested pH reference material as well (Good reasons to have this separate from the CT / Alk reference material)

Other alternatives in EU

2022-03-15 19:23:20 UTC

Abed: In addition to ICOS, I would suggest to contact two institutions:
1- LNE (Laboratoire national de métrologie et d'essais) : https://www.lne.fr/fr. They are producing CRMs for pH and not considering shipping outside of France due to logistic issues. You can contact: Fisicaro Paola
Stoica Daniela

2- Quasimeme are known for their expertise in producing CRMs for nutrients and other chemicals. We can check with them on why they are not considering carbonate system CRMs, and what they might need to re-consider this?

Few number from our last survey for the Med. community:

2022-03-15 19:32:38 UTC

1- Do you measure carbonate system parameters?
71% yes.
2-What chemical parameters are you measuring?
pH (86%), AT (78%), CT (47%), pCO2 (42%), Calcium carbonate ions (22%). This shows the importance of producing pH CRMs.
3- Would you be interested in participating to proficency tests for the CO2 system in seawater (e.g. WEPAL/QUASIMEME: total alkalinity and DIC- High and low salinity, etc.)?
80% yes.
4- Do you have problems having Certified Reference Materials (CRMs)?
74% YES.
5- What is the main obstacle in getting your CRMs?
Limited/no fund (64%), shipment difficulties (18%),

From your own perspective, what is the best way to make the CRMs more available to Mediterranean researchers/institutions?

2022-03-15 19:35:28 UTC

Abed: When this question was asked to the community, these were the answers
*Have a supplier of high quality CRMs in Europe

*I've noticed that the CRM bottles are made from Germany. Possibly in that country they should also gain the knowledge on preparing CRMs as well. It would certainly reduce the cost (since also the bottle production will be there). It would also reduce the cost for the rest of the EU countries (not sure for the non-EU) ones. However, the Institute that could prepare them should be extremely professional and handle everything with care. I would also like to recommend UK as the CRM preparation country however now that they are not in the EU paying customs like I do for things from the US I wouldn't want it. My next best choice would be France. However, to reduce costs the bottle production should be in the same country as the CRM preparation and assist the countries that have minimum to none funding for OA research. Otherwise, we could continue having training and exchange of knowledge and inter-calibration experiments but some countries will be always left out. I think the knowledge is there. Some of the means are there but definitely the funding is not there yet.

*Through a network of participants in EU projects, which will finance the CMRs

*Create them more locally

*Producing CRMs in a Mediterranean institution would help in reducing the price and the shipment fees.

*More funding

*sharing material between labs, make a standardized lab in Europe

*have more labs producing CRMs that are intercalibrated and standised.

*More equipment and informatjon

*Find a laboratory that produces CRMs in Europe

*Their production in Europe with salinities close to those of the Mediterranean Sea

*We must find an institute willing to produce those CRM and sell them to the community at an affordable price.

*A certified lab could start sampling, preserving and analyzing seawater form a specific region, not yet acidified, to standarize this procedure and make this sample available for Mediterranean and possibly European labs.

*Have an accredited laboratory in Mediterranean

*Ideally, to have an European Certified laboratory

Network

*projects regional collaboration

*Find a european, well organized laboratory (from public or private research institute) able to provide them at a sustainable cost

*Direct collaboration with CRM's Lab for the all OA-Med Hub

make it directly in Europe

*A transnational initiative to produce CRM with the help of metrological institution.

*Through collaborative projects or intercomparison exercises

*Produce them in Europe, and sponsored by ICOS or IOCCP

Make specific Med CRM

*local (EU) production

*Having certification labs around the mediterranean basin

to be produced by a European/Mediterranean lab

may be to have a European provider with lower shipping prices. In Algeria, the main problem is rather internal (the national institutions can't have a currency account and the national providers of laboratory equipements do not sell CRMs ! )

ADickson

2022-03-15 22:19:10 UTC

The key problems are
(a) Access to seawater
(b) Choice of suitable packaging
(c) How to preserve the packaged seawaters

At present Scripps uses local Southern California Seawater, borosilicate-33 glass bottles with a greased seal, and adds mercury(II) chloride as a poison.

The only group that does it differently are in Japan where they are testing using autoclaving as a way of sterilizing seawater, that is then stored in sterile aluminum bottles.

It is non-trivial to confirm that either of these approaches can be done reliably.

Secondary salinity standards are produced by some institutions focused on sensor calibration (e.g. here in Latin America, at least in Chile, Mexico and Brazil). In Chile, for instance, it was already funded a 10-years program for standarization, calibration and validation of ocean salinity and nutrients. Working in association with these institutions and facilities can give chances to access to deep seawater, the sterilizastion procedures, and implement the production of secondary standards for AT/DIC, at least for distribution at the local/national level. I know Argentina was doing some attempt. But a key point is that these institutions that produce it must reach quality levels that are assured and validated by some certifying institution, and with an uncertainty that could be modestly well known (which is not an easy task). A SOP for secondary standard production would help for sure. I'm also agree, the acid and TRIS issue is a major problem for the region.

2022-03-16 20:47:13 UTC

To do list:

maribelgarciaibanez — 2022-03-16 22:49:59 UTC

- Form a group of experts that will develop the SOP for production and certification of the secondary RMs to be produced by regional hubs.