Walden Two Group by Chelsie Trainer

Frazier-Protagonist

ctraine1 — 2023-09-06 13:10:07 UTC

Professor Burris- Psychology Professor (Writer)

ctraine1 — 2023-09-06 13:13:27 UTC

Castle- Philosophy Professor

ctraine1 — 2023-09-06 13:13:54 UTC

Rogers and Barbara

ctraine1 — 2023-09-06 13:14:38 UTC

Steve Jamnik and Mary (Steve met Roger on the battlefield)

ctraine1 — 2023-09-06 13:15:39 UTC

Walden Two- Utopian Community created by Frazier in the 1930s.

ctraine1 — 2023-09-06 13:58:00 UTC

-Nearly a thousand residents in the community
-Built roads and building by their architects
-Sheep in the Lawn- (Lawn is being used (consumed) and doesn't need cared for (or consumes) the residents.

Walden Two- Discussion for Chapters 1-4

ctraine1 — 2023-09-06 18:31:36 UTC

A utopian society has never really crossed my mind prior to reading this beginning of this book. I will admit I don't believe in our society we could ever make that work. Many of us are stuck in our own ways and very opinionated. I feel like the perspective of Burris is changing since chapter 1. He seemed to be fairly against the idea of a Utopian community and the idea that Rogers, his previous student, brought it to his attention. By the end of chapter 4 it seemed he was almost amused by the idea of this. While Castle seemed less amused of the idea and more hesitant, as well as making snarky comments. The character shift provides and interesting thought to me as the idea of a utopian community seems odd, but once you're in the environment and experiencing this first hand; maybe it could be something of interest. The sheep in the lawn and the idea of "consuming that lawn, but not having it consume them" was an interesting perspective. We all seem to do that with one thing or another. Frazier noted controlling the weather is one of the best aspects, though he doesn't mean physically, but connecting all the housing and facilities together to prevent anyone from getting wet made the seemingly impossible idea somewhat of a possibility. I find it interesting, things we see that may be so small, are somehow made easier inside the utopia, such as the tall tea glasses. I am interested to see how this story progresses and all the workings of Walden Two.

You can still work on this. I know some are more focused on the exam right now. Plenty of time to get points that we are fine skipping this week.

jevey — 2023-09-19 15:51:58 UTC

As we continue through the book, feel free to add commentary that fits with what we know about learning theory and behavior.

This is exemplified by a utopian vision for improving social fairness and human well-being. People in Utopia have power over their own life. It is doing what you want for the sake of doing it.

hcarey21 — 2023-09-19 20:07:30 UTC

The story is told by Professor Burris, a psychology professor. As the story begins, Rogers, an old Burris pupil, and his friend Jamnik pay a visit to Burris' office. The two men were just discharged from the service following World War II. They're not sure what to do with themselves now that they've left the military, and they're looking for a new form of social structure to

hcarey21 — 2023-09-19 20:07:58 UTC

We should be over here now. One hot topic with my students in the approach to childrearing. Consider how none of us raises our children on our own. Who else helps?

jevey — 2023-09-25 22:22:19 UTC

Walden Two- Discussion 5-8

ctraine1 — 2023-09-28 22:58:38 UTC

This book is truly captivating to say the least. I am enjoying the dynamic between Castle and Frazier. It seems as Frazier begins to discuss how things work or how it works in Walden Two, Castle interrupts with an almost snarky comment. It reminded me similar of classical condition in the idea that prior they would all listen to Frazier discuss and then castle would sneak it with a comment following. Now it seems every time Frazier talks castle automatically interjects and then Burris almost interjects to become the mediator between the two. I think it's interesting that they attempt to assimilate the children in different cultures almost protecting them from culture shock of the outside world. We also see a different side of Frazier in chapter 5 where he shows emotion towards Deborah turning 7 (now able to eat with the community), it makes me wonder if Frazier may have a relationship to her as I feel that hasn't been discussed as much throughout.

Walden Two Chapters 9-12

ctraine1 — 2023-09-29 00:04:56 UTC

I would admit I wondered through out how the children were raised and tried to understand their sort of separation from the adult community. While reading that the children stay in nursery cubicle I was kind of taken back by that idea. I personally have struggled with fertility and the idea of not spending as much time as possible with my newborn feels off for me, but then again I grew up where I was always in other places. I would stay with parents sometimes, my grandma the next day, and my great grandparents the next time. I truly enjoyed that aspect growing up with so much love and maybe the idea could be our family is truly a small community of its own that helps you with your baby, especially in the first year. It was an interesting idea to equate to as I was reading. I also found Frazier stating it's not a utopia, it's more of an experiment and things change over time to what works best for them. I find this interesting considering it seems to take long for us to conform in the world to something that may not work for us, but me be a quicker fix in Walden Two due to the time that each person has and the managers of each area.

Your abilities

mblonde1 — 2023-10-09 23:36:51 UTC

I thought it was interesting in chapter 11 it was said that your abilities were based on your environment. When they were saying that you would be a good artist based on your environment instead of your genetics. Its usually said that you would be good at the same things as your parents but here its claiming the opposite

Walden Two- Discussion 13-16

ctraine1 — 2023-10-13 15:20:54 UTC

These chapters focus a lot on children growth through the community. Learning children technically go through phases from 1 to 3 they are in a group setting, 5 to 13 children are put in a more progressively adult like quarters. Then, at 13 they are put in adult quarters. After this, the children of high school age and college age are free to study what they like for as long as they like. Castle and Frazier continued to argue about almost everything in Walden Two. It's interesting to see them use instrumental conditioning to try and shape children and their behaviors of self-control. Children are given a lollipop around their neck and the lollipop is covered in sugar. If the child does not lick the lollipop before the end of the day they get to eat it showing positive reinforcement. We also see a form of negative punishment where they are shocked when sat at a table with food to prevent them from eating. I found it interesting they push for teens to have their children early and women are typically done having them in their mid-twenties giving them more freedom to have a career. I feel teens are still kids themselves and always felt it would be harder for them to have a childhood and life when having a child so young, but in Walden Two it seems the whole community actually raises the child so it may be easier.

Chapter 5: How do Walden Two residents approach the issues of clothing and styles?

hcarey21 — 2023-10-27 20:43:27 UTC

According to Frazier, Walden Two's occupants dressed for comfort and practicality. When Frazier claims that the neighborhood dresses up for big occasions, Castle challenges their pragmatism.Some of the clothes and cultural customs, according to Frazier, are for the benefit of children, who should feel comfortable mingling in the world outside Walden Two.Frazier argues against Castle that some styles of clothes are essentially emblems of class or state. This is why party dresses are rarely worn. The society values cleanliness and neatness and prefers attire that is less subject to fashion trends, such as sweaters and blouses. He further claims that a "shabby" appearance would not be tolerated at Walden Two since it indicates "weariness."

Chapter 11

hcarey21 — 2023-10-27 20:53:24 UTC

Through Frazier, Skinner confronts current society by stating that the arts are as important for a healthy community as any other skill or service. In an ideal society, the arts would not be limited to the wealthy or artists with wealthy patrons. This establishes a distinction between the outer world and Walden Two in terms of the arts. Frazier's notion of a Golden Age demonstrates his enthusiasm for the community and what he believes it is capable of accomplishing. He also claims that it is unreachable in today's modern society due to economic restrictions. Meanwhile, Burris's personality evolves as he begins to question his own academic proclivities. He is eager to understand more about artistic sense and what motivates people to create. When he realizes his initial instinct is to conduct research in a library, he chastises himself for being so "bookish." He also concedes that Frazier would not approach such an exciting subject in that manner.

Chapter 15

hcarey21 — 2023-10-27 20:58:17 UTC

Chapter 15 depicts how the children progressively grow into adulthood. It also allows Castle and Frazier to discuss higher education. The key issue here is not the method of higher education, but the incentive for it. Frazier contends that academia outside of academics is a self-perpetuating system built on many of the competitive feelings that Walden Two seeks to abolish. Although it may motivate a few outstanding individuals to thrive, it comes at a high cost. Castle is allowed to disagree with Frazier since their disagreements are based on differing assumptions about the ideals and aims of education.

Walden Two- Discussion 17-19

ctraine1 — 2023-10-29 22:57:58 UTC

In chapter 17, it's discussed that husband and wives are encouraged to live in separate quarters due to a previous experiment of happiness being rated and finding couples happier that were separated. I did find the idea interesting when discussing the idea of having children again raised by the community. It is stated that the parent's have less of a burden to raise their child, while those who are childless now have the opportunity to assist in raising another's child. I have struggled with fertility and I find this idea interesting of "sharing" parenting. I feel like it would actually help those with issues of infertility. Similar to us potentially having nieces or nephews we help raise in the outside world. We also hear of Rodge's interest in Walden Two and Barbara's more hesitation to staying there. Frazier also is confronted by Burris regarding the failure of other similar communities, na while Frazier acknowledges this he states that Walden Two is different due to the continuous experiments conducted.

Walden Two- Discussion 20-22

ctraine1 — 2023-10-29 23:08:10 UTC

There 3 chapters were the most interesting to me thus far. We once again have Castle and Frazier disagreeing with each other and Castle continues on through chapter 20 that Walden Two does not have essentials that are needed for a "good life". And later in chapter 22 states he believes the whole thing is a hoax. Frazier explains while things may be different in the community, it does not mean a person cannot have just as good a life as anyone else. We also see Burris with a sort of jealous attitude towards Frazier as Mary and Steve decide they want to live in Walden Two, while even having an interview. Burris begins contemplating staying himself in the community. I also found it interesting that doctors have so much more freedom and push in Walden Two. Allowing for changes in food and sanitation process, even allowing personal check ups to be at any time. This feels like something to be implemented outside the community. Doctors should have more say in sanitation process and so forth.

Discussion Chapter 17

hcarey21 — 2023-11-21 20:25:39 UTC

The first hint of what the Walden Two community has done to modify social interactions is revealed in Chapter 17. The community's experimental process for determining the ideal living arrangement is practical and scientifically rigorous, but not dictatorial. Of course, the Walden Two study results are, by definition, not transferable to the outside world; couples outside of Walden Two may be happy living in the same room due to changes in their environment. But this is meaningless to Frazier and the rest of the town. Their mission is to create a better Walden Two.

There is one potential fault in the experimental logic that is alluded to here, and it becomes more apparent later in the novel, when Frazier describes the destiny of Walden Two members who fail to follow the rules. The problem is that Walden Two is a community that is self-selected. People who have chosen to live at Walden Two are very likely to be particularly well-suited to it. And if they discover that they are not well-suited to it after coming, they are free to leave. Just as private schools can dump their failing pupils on public schools, Walden Two can dump its failing humans on society.

Discussion: Chapters 18 and 19

hcarey21 — 2023-11-21 20:28:21 UTC

Rodge's persona is developed somewhat in Chapter 18 during his talk with Burris. His unwavering devotion to Barbara, despite her dislike for Walden Two, demonstrates both his devotion to her and his refusal to quit the outside world. Unlike Castle, Barbara is not opposed to Walden Two because of its theoretical ideas; she simply prefers the benefits of the outside world and is ready to accept its drawbacks.

In Chapter 19, Frazier's response to Burris' query regarding former communities demonstrates how vital the concept of experimentation is to Walden Two. We also get the impression that, despite his claims about eliminating rage, envy, and competitiveness, Frazier is not fully free of bad feelings. He is so dedicated to the success of Walden Two that he has trouble with restraint when it is attacked or compared to other communities that failed.

Chapter 20 Discussion

hcarey21 — 2023-12-07 22:15:05 UTC

These chapters piqued my interest, particularly the themes covered. In Chapter 20, we see Frazier and Castle disagreeing about their view of "The Good Life." Simply put, Frazier believes that whatever creates good results is the correct thing to do, whereas Castle believes that freedom and moral law are inherently good.

Chapter 20 Discussion: Continuation

hcarey21 — 2023-12-07 22:15:56 UTC

The use and misuse of force are the results of Walden Two's scientific design. An experimental "control" is a method of confirming that the outcomes of a manipulation are the effect of the manipulation and not some other factor. Frazier disagrees with that assessment, arguing that while it is hard to fully control for many of the variables of interest at Walden Two, it is also unneeded. The causal relationship is obvious: self-control leads to happiness. Walden Two is, in theory, based on behavioral research, but the practical and ethical challenges of conducting well-controlled trials on humans are practically impossible.

Chapter 23 Discussion

hcarey21 — 2023-12-07 22:24:28 UTC

While reading through these chapters, something in Chapter 23 struck my eye. Frazier asserted that Walden Two rejects all political and economic solutions to society's issues. Walden Two members vote in local elections, but they all follow the Planners' recommendations. Religion is not welcome at Walden Two. Non-religious Sunday meetings in the community perform some of the same community-building functions as traditional religious groups.

Chapter 23 Discussion: Continuation

hcarey21 — 2023-12-07 22:24:54 UTC

Castle condemns Walden Two for avoiding outside world concerns rather than assisting in their resolution. Frazier responds that the only way to truly understand the answers is to test them in a controlled environment first. We can clearly see that is precisely what is happening at Walden Two.

Chapter 29 Discussion

hcarey21 — 2023-12-07 22:45:14 UTC

Skinner incorporated a quick comment through his character Frazier in chapter 29 that would subsequently be dedicated to an entire book. Which I thought was quite wise of him. Skinner claimed that we needed to look beyond ideas like "freedom" and "dignity" and toward a behavior science. The "literature of freedom" is a body of work that has been utilized to manipulate human behavior in Western civilization. That method of behaving is no longer acceptable, as evidenced by the prospect of nuclear war, environmental degradation, and rising levels of crime and social conflict. Individual liberties have, if anything, exacerbated such issues. Skinner believed that what was required instead was a government based on the ideas of behavioral science. The purpose of such a government should be freedom from oppression, not just freedom. A government of this type could directly control the populace by non-oppressive measures, such as positive reinforcement, and therefore create a better world for everyone.

Chapter 34 Discussion

hcarey21 — 2023-12-07 22:55:46 UTC

In chapter 34, I think it was really interesting that we returned to the scene that introduced us to Walden Two and to behavioral control. In the beginning we are made to believe that the sheep are an ambiguous symbol, representing both the promise of behavioral control and its flaws when wrongly implemented. However once we reach the end of the book, our image of the sheep contrasts strongly with our image of the people of Walden Two. We come to find out that the sheep seem less like a symbol of Walden Two than like a symbol of the methods of control, such as the laws and the police forces that support them, which govern behavior in the outside world.