Lincoln: Great Emancipator or Flip Flopper? by Greg Kulowiec

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-05-28 19:41:15 UTC

Provide your opinion. Respond to the readings. Quote the readings. Or debate a posting by another student.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-01 16:14:31 UTC

When you post a note to the page, try to organize it and place it with other like ideas or next to an idea you are trying to build off of.

Brianna

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 18:32:04 UTC

"He was big enough to be inconsistent" Du Bois people did not care as much that he was a flip floper because of his status in society.

Brianna

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 18:32:49 UTC

"Your actions speak louder than words"

Brianna

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 18:33:58 UTC

People can make Lincoln out to be who ever they want if try hard enough you can prove what ever you want with historicle figures.

steve

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 19:18:30 UTC

Lincoln was without doubt a racist. The speech he gave in which he stated that African Americans are not equal is basically the definition of racism.

Steve

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 19:21:27 UTC

One of Lincol's primary reasons for freeing the slaves was for economical purposes...to help out the poor white farmers.

Steve

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 19:26:52 UTC

Lincoln stronly supported the recolonization of Africa right after the slaves were freed. HE obviously did not view them as citizens of the united States.

Caitlin

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 21:12:26 UTC

Lincoln changed his mind back and forth but I believe that he leaned more toward being racist. “He embraced anti-black attitudes and phobias in his early years.”

Samantha

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 21:24:33 UTC

I agree with that. I feel that Lincoln is going to change over the years, as Mr. K said in class, he's going to take on the image that our generation makes.

Caitlin

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 21:26:11 UTC

Lincoln doesn’t seem like he trusted black people. “I fear that in a few weeks the arms would be in the hands of the rebels.”

Samantha

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 21:27:18 UTC

In the paper, Gates said, "his picture was in nearly every black home." I wonder how everyone feels about Lincoln now that he was identified as a racist.

Samantha

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 21:30:37 UTC

I agree with what Caitlin said, it does look like Lincoln only decided to free the slaves to preserve the Union and he didn't really care what happened after.

Caitlin

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 21:31:27 UTC

The quote that Lincoln said was extremely racist and he was favoring the white. “I am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Ashley

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 21:38:56 UTC

I agree with Caitling because he showed us that he kept changing his mind when it came to whether or not he was for or against the blacks.

Ashley

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 21:43:31 UTC

"the very intellegent Negroes, he given the right to vote" This quote showed that Lincoln was allowing to let equality to actually happen.

Ashley

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-01 21:49:22 UTC

"forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." This was a racist remark that Lincoln said in a speech.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-01 23:44:16 UTC

Lincoln appears to be two opposing things at the same time. Like the truth paradox = everything I say is a lie (if it is true, then the statement is false...)

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-01 23:46:58 UTC

Good point Sam...I also noticed this statement & how Gates changed over time. Remeber though, he is the very person that is creating the new Lincoln.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-01 23:48:42 UTC

Steve, I think you are understanding Lincoln through a 21st century lense, using our defiinition of racism.

Nicole

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 00:15:43 UTC

I think that Lincoln can be protrayed as a racist but his decisions as president weren't really effected by his personal beliefs.

Nicole

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 00:17:34 UTC

I completely agree that actions speak louder than words in Lincoln's case. And the fact that he changed his mind a lot made his decisions better at times.

"Nicole"

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 00:30:09 UTC

"A man whose attitudes about race & slavery transcended his time and place" He has above & beyond ideas. Wouldn't this make a difference with opposing opinions?

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-02 00:49:30 UTC

How could his decisions as president not be impacted by his beliefs? His beliefs might have changed, but they most certainly guided his actions.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-02 00:50:24 UTC

feel free to post over here too.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-02 00:52:37 UTC

Quotes are quotes...it is how WE use them to define who his is that changes, not who Lincoln was.

Matt

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 00:54:52 UTC

Whatever his beliefs may be, it is clear that he freed the slaves for only political purposes. As stated, the differance between a win and a loss was slavery

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-02 00:54:56 UTC

Ashley, do you really think it is possible for someone to change their mind about something that is so straight forward?

Matt

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 00:59:51 UTC

I agree with Bri. No matter what the facts are, people will take them and add their own opinions to them. It is up to each individual to decide what they think

Matt

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 01:06:08 UTC

I do agree that he changed his opinion on slaves. For example, his meeting with Fredrick Douglass. He was the first person he treated as "an intellectual equal

Andrew

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 02:08:19 UTC

Well defind a racist, now to us Lincoln was a racist indeed in our time period, but back then was he a racist, i dont believe he was.

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 02:10:04 UTC

I believe Lincoln was racist at one point; he valued a race higher than another, and by our definition today that is being racist.

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 02:12:38 UTC

His actions conflicted with his racist beliefs; and because he was able to carry out his decisions it made him into a "legend"

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 02:13:55 UTC

I believe that Lincoln shouldn't be judged by his beliefs as a person; he should be judged on what he decided as a president

Andrew

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 02:21:49 UTC

Lincoln was only doing what anyother person in America was doing, which was to make a money in the end, he did put his own option to the side for the US.

Andrew

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 02:24:18 UTC

Also Steve, to perserve the Union, he swore an oath to save Union and he did.

Audrey

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 03:06:02 UTC

It describes Lincoln as a "beacon of tolerance" He didn't like African Americans but he was tolerant of them because he knew that slavery broke up union.

Audrey

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 03:07:27 UTC

He believed that slavery was wrong, but so was equality among races.

Audrey

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 03:12:54 UTC

Wasnt against slavery because it was abuse to blacks, but it was sad for the whites who couldnt buy them. He never changed his mind over time, always racist.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-02 11:01:00 UTC

Good point Noel. Isn't it possible he may have never been elected if he wasn't somewhat racist...no one would have listened to him.

Alli

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 15:32:59 UTC

The thing that was so great about Lincoln was that he was diplomatic, politics aren't always about personal opinions.

Alli

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 15:36:18 UTC

Lincoln had biased views, but he was also giving power to blacks, the power he gave them was to vote against him, and that freedom showed respect.

brianna

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 18:41:59 UTC

I like when the professor said "remembering is to some degree forgetting" I did not completely understand it, but it seemed rather deep.

Brianna

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 18:42:55 UTC

I was not aware a big reason that Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery because it was "un moral because all white people cannot have slaves."

Brianna

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 18:43:44 UTC

Lincoln had a three step plan to abolishing slavery Gradual-over 30 year span Pay slave owners back for their loss Deport slaves

Samantha

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 20:33:01 UTC

I agree with Bri. When the Yale guy said that you need to forget some things to remember someone, that's how we should treat Lincoln. Forget his racism.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-02 20:57:44 UTC

Bri, I wrote that comment down as well...Sam, how can you so quickly dismiss the racist component of Lincoln?

Samantha

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 20:58:36 UTC

It said that Lincoln stayed on the fence. I feel like he did that because he wanted to win and after he won, he told everyone how he really felt.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-02 20:58:46 UTC

True, the ability to understand the past requires us to forget aspects of the past. Some say the best quality humans have is their ability to forget easily.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-02 21:01:07 UTC

Audrey, isn't that worse that just being racist? He didn't believe in equality, but believed he could "use" the slaves to achieve his end goal.

Samantha

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 21:07:00 UTC

"I do not expect the house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided." The house will always be divided- Republicans and Democrats.

Tom

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 22:19:08 UTC

I think its obvious that he was a racist. Yes he freed slaves, but it was only for the good of the Union. As Bri says his plan called for deporting slaves

Tom

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 22:20:11 UTC

And wanting to deport slaves because they don't deserve the freedoms whites did makes him a racist in my eyes.

Tom

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 22:23:55 UTC

I agree with What andrew said. Every generation will have a different view of what is and is not racist.

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 22:57:18 UTC

Lincoln was careful about the decisions he made; he had to make choices that he didn't agree w/; I be that's why he was able to succeed as a president

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:01:18 UTC

I think what Sam meant, is that Lincoln was racist, but he made decisions that went against his beliefs; we can't completely judge Lincoln on his beliefs

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:02:46 UTC

(con't.) we should judge Lincoln on the decisions he made as a president, since that's what affects our country the most.

Jess

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:10:55 UTC

Although Lincoln didn't believe in equality, it could never be reached. The moment the white race looked down on blacks equality was made impossible forever.

Anonymous

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:17:21 UTC

^good points. someone can believe slavery is wrong and human cruelty, yet still have a prejudice towards a certain race because that's the way they were raised

Steve

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:24:46 UTC

If you were to read quotes 3 and 5 without knowing they were both from Lincoln you would think they were from two completely different people. Quote 3 explains

Meri

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:28:36 UTC

I agree with Noel. Lincoln had to say things he didn't necessarily believe in so he could get the attention of voters.

Meri

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:31:31 UTC

I found it ironic that Pres Lincoln didn't think it unmoral for people to be treating others that way, but that others were missing out on slavery opportunities

Meri

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:33:19 UTC

Knowing how people thought about things, we should be able to think differently about Abraham Lincoln's choices. He grew up in a racist town with racist people

Meri

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:33:56 UTC

cont.. he didn't know any better to say different about slaves. I suppose it's only natural that he'd have certain feelings for them. But they eventually change

Steve

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:35:55 UTC

"cont" how he views slavery as the most immoral thing imagineable. In quote 5 he states how blacks shouldnt be equal socially or politically.

Steve

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:38:18 UTC

Im with wells. His emancipation was not just because he saw slavery as immoral. He wanted to free them then get rid of them.

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-02 23:49:47 UTC

I agree with Meri; Lincoln was probably so heavily influenced by his childhood; however it doesn't mean that Lincoln is open for changing his views

Alli

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 00:20:53 UTC

I think a good point to make is that he was simply ignorant. He said what he felt when he wanted. But is still remembered fondly. He played his cards right.

Alli

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 00:22:06 UTC

(cont) He told his people exactly what they wanted to hear, whether they were slaves or racists. He did what he had to do to stay on top. Just a politician.

Matt

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 00:26:34 UTC

I agree with Noel. Growing up in the South and in a world that really belived slavery was a normal thing must have had an impact on his original outlook

Matt

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 00:29:48 UTC

Along with Steve, he may have thought slavery was wrong, but the fact he did not beleive them equal does make him a racst, at least by todays standard.

Matt

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 00:40:09 UTC

At first, I belive, he acted in contradiction to his beliefs, but as his term went on his opinions on slaves changed for the better.

Caitlin

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 01:04:44 UTC

Lincoln said he hated slavery the first time he saw it, for economic and moral reasons, and the Declaration did apply to the slaves but I don’t believe him.

Caitlin

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 01:06:12 UTC

He claimed he hated slavery, and thought the civil war would solve it, but it didn’t and slavery continued and was still an issue, he hardly fixed anything.

Caitlin

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 01:08:18 UTC

Lincoln said he was with the blacks but he used the “N-word” and racist jokes. He also hinted the equality for blacks was a bad thing to do, he WAS a racist.

Jess

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 02:10:31 UTC

If you look at comment 5 on the paper today, it shows that Lincoln went along with things that would make him look good to the majority of the public; (whites).

Jess

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 02:15:39 UTC

^a good point Alli. Everyone says Lincoln was this highly intellegent man. Maybe he was just quick to cover himself when it showed he wasn't really that bright.

Jess

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 02:17:42 UTC

A successful president; yes. A successful leader; no.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 02:45:51 UTC

I don't agree with Meri or Noel on this one. He could genuinely mean everything he said, viewpoints and ideologies would adapt to fit his situation.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 02:49:52 UTC

he was prejudiced, but not racist, in my opinion. Though he thought less of black people, he did not let his prejudice thoughts impact his actions.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 02:56:46 UTC

I don't think Lincoln was any of the three. He simply seems to be a unionist. Every decision he made reflected his sole desire, to keep the union intact.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 02:57:57 UTC

Unionist is a made up word...I think... ----------->

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 02:59:54 UTC

To respond to Tom, the deportation of slaves may have seemed like the best economical and even the best moral decision at the moment for everyone's benefit.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:01:52 UTC

Slaves could go home to their "native" land, and would not have to compete in a racist capitalist society, white men's jobs would not be put at risk.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:07:32 UTC

You can't judge a politician on his being political. Of course he is going to be on the fence and cast himself in different lights to appeal to different groups

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:09:16 UTC

Amen, Noel. Lincoln put the good of the union and it's citizens before his own beliefs. I still believe he was an amazing president.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:11:35 UTC

To comment on Alli, can you really blame him for being an efficient politician in a time when the country needed a "hero" to hold itself together? I can't.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:18:40 UTC

Jess, you talk like a politician's ideas are not supposed to adapt. His beliefs are not set in stone once he has stated them. A narrow-minded pres is no good.

Andrew

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:21:20 UTC

He was an absolute flip flopper, if the Union had to delcare war, he would go to war, if he had to ban slaverly, he would ban it for the greater good of the US.

Andrew

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:21:35 UTC

He would only do want he had to do, to save the Union, he set his own option aside and would do what he had to get the Union back together.

Andrew

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:22:20 UTC

If Lincoln had to move the slaves to a different country he would do it if he had to. If he didn't have to Emancipate the slaves he wouldn't have to.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:23:53 UTC

I agree Sam, but then again, to some people its not too reassuring to think a president isn't being completely honest with their actions.

Nicole

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:44:08 UTC

I comepletly agree with Brendan because the point that was made in class that Lincoln may have said some of the "racists" things he said to get people to listen

Nicole

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:51:30 UTC

I agree w/ Noel & Brendan. THis is what I tried to say in a comment yesterday my the words I used didn't come out right. His ideas were not 1st, the country was

Nicole

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:55:40 UTC

Lincoln may have used the N word and may have believed other things than what he was doing as a president and all that but he did fix and preserve the union...

Nicole

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 03:56:54 UTC

(continued) having an opinion didn't make him evil and useless to society.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-03 10:04:08 UTC

Good point Brendan. Isn't everyone predjudiced, the problem is when one lets that initial feeling blindly guide their actions: racism.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-03 10:06:11 UTC

The N word discussion is sticky. It is nearly impossible to understand the use of that word from our perspective.

Greg Kulowiec

gkulowiec — 2009-06-03 10:07:00 UTC

Andrew, you make it appear that Lincoln actually stood for nothing and was just a puppet of the Union.

Sam

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 15:06:17 UTC

Mr. K, I don't think we should totally dismiss it. I just think that when it comes to remembering Lincoln for all of his achievement, his racism should be

Sam

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 15:07:38 UTC

(cont.) less chastized. He did Emancipate most of the slaves, yeah to help him win a war, but he freed them to preserve the Union and he knew that slavery was

meri

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 20:24:01 UTC

I'm stickin' to my points I made in the past few days. He grew up a racist, and said things he maybe didn't mean to get voters attention so he could become pres

Nicole

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 21:58:35 UTC

In a way I understand what Andrew is saying because I agree that Lincoln put the country first but I don't think that he stood for nothing at all.

Nicole

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 22:02:54 UTC

I half way agree w/ Meri. I don't think he was racist because his veiw on blacks was not his focus, I do agree that he said things for attention; truth or not

Nicole

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 22:12:47 UTC

I agree w/ Brendan 100% but is agreeing to Lincoln being prejudice the same type of thing as the racist comments? Does the definition change through generation?

Sam

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 23:04:18 UTC

(cont.) wrong, even if his reasons for thinking it was wrong weren't the same as abolitionists he still thought that it was a wrong thing to do. So, I feel that

Sam

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 23:05:26 UTC

(cont.) when we review Lincoln, it's obvious important to point out his racist remarks, but those aren't nearly important as the big picture: ending slavery.

Sam

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 23:07:20 UTC

I agree w/ Meri too. Those were the problems that we presented the most, therefore those were the ones he had to address.

Sam

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 23:14:46 UTC

I'm confused. Lin. was raised in a racist com, but he wasn't actually faced w/ what he thought about slavery until campaigning. Was he just going w/ the flow?

Sam

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-03 23:19:25 UTC

Mr. K, maybe Lin. was just speaking blindly when he said whites were superior? Or maybe that was how he really felt. Will we ever really know? Probably not.

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 00:59:51 UTC

I think L. was just trying to win favor in different parts of the US; he wanted to win, so he changed views a lot.

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 01:04:08 UTC

L. was prob. speaking his views that he only knew growing up as a kid; his views changed post-war; people are allowed to change when persuaded by another view

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 01:08:03 UTC

Not so much changing his view as stating different sides of arguments. The man is a master of word choice.

Noel

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 01:12:10 UTC

it def. depends on how one views racism; if L. is judged by today's def: one race is better, then L.was racist,AT ONE POINT, he wasn't racist his entire life

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 01:22:31 UTC

Wouldn't standing for the Union be "something" not "nothing"? This makes him a great president, serving the COUNTRY to the best of his abilities, not an agenda.

Brendan

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 01:25:14 UTC

Does anyone think it is a bad thing that Lincoln is a "flip flopper" if he is actually doing it for the well-being of the Union?

Caitlin

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 01:31:59 UTC

Something I thought was interesting was Lincoln said “It will become all one thing or all the other.” It is showing how he didn’t believe it could be divided.

Caitlin

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 01:33:02 UTC

I didn’t like when Lincoln said “nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races.”

Caitlin

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 01:33:29 UTC

Lincoln said “a peaceful end of slavery sometime.” He never really ended slavery and people are giving him credit for something he didn’t fully do.

Andrew

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 03:00:42 UTC

Lincoln's wife was from a major slave holding family deffiently was major contribtor to Lincoln's ideas on slaverly

Andrew

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 03:02:38 UTC

Yea i agree with Meri too because he told the people what they wanted to hear and once he was in office, he can do whatever he want with any issues he flipflop

Andrew

svetlana10_19661 — 2009-06-04 03:05:52 UTC

Yea Brendan i agree because if he didn't be a flip flopper he wouldn't have been pres. and done the thing he was able to accommish in his terms of office.

Thom

tmorin — 2013-12-09 16:15:01 UTC

I agree with Greg, Lincoln is a confusing figure.

But I think his writings/speeches make it clear he detested the institution.