H106: Week 15 Discussion by Justin Jones https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja H106 Yawp! en-us 2022-02-25 18:59:38 UTC 2022-04-23 13:00:51 UTC hello@padlet.com Prompt: jjones104 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2066886246 1. Why did the United States lose the Vietnam war?

2. Listen to these two songs and read their lyrics.  What does this suggest about some Americans and the Vietnam War?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD5_YJQzobs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxdqEjocEQQ

3. Refer to the following resources.  What can be learned from the Pentagon Papers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hacv2Od9kbU

https://www.archives.gov/research/pentagon-papers

4. How did the 1970s impact the way Americans viewed their government?

5. Listen to this song and think about the lyrics and visuals.  The Vietnam War ended in 1975 and this song was written in 1992.  What does this song suggest to you about the realities of this war and the long-term consequences it had on some soldiers (American and Vietnamese) and their families? What does it suggest about any war, in general?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAE6Il6OTcs]]> 2022-02-25 19:14:59 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2066886246 Lyrics for Rooster by Alice in Chains. jjones104 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2145432077 Ain't found a way to kill me yet
Eyes burn with stinging sweat
Seems every path leads me to nowhere
Wife and kids, household pet
Army green was no safe bet
The bullets scream to me from somewhere

Here they come to snuff the rooster
Yeah, here come the rooster
You know he ain't gonna die
No, no, no, you know he ain't gonna die
Here they come to snuff the rooster, ah yeah
Yeah, here come the rooster, yeah
You know he ain't gonna die
No, no, no, you know he ain't gonna die

Walkin' tall machine gun man
They spit on me in my homeland
Gloria sent me pictures of my boy
Got my pills 'gainst mosquito death
My Buddy's breathin' his dyin' breath
Oh god, please won't you help me make it through?

Here they come to snuff the rooster
Yeah, here come the rooster, yeah
You know he ain't gonna die
No, no, no you know he ain't gonna die

Songwriter: Jerry Cantrell
]]> 2022-04-16 10:39:31 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2145432077 Karly https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2150461935 1. There were multiple factors that contributed to America's loss in the Vietnam war. American soldiers being unfamiliar with the jungle, a lack of objectives, and little support from back home. 
2. Both of this songs express anti war feeling toward Vietnam. The first song "Fortunate Son" refers to the difference in privileges that different groups of people have and who are actually left fighting in the war. As elites and government positions pushed and preached to fight in the war, they weren't even sending their own sons to fight. The second song highlights all the literal and metaphoric bullets had to dodge the violence of the war. 
3. The Pentagon Papers revealed the truth that the government was working to cover up. Some of the information leaked out to citizens which raised major issues. People should learn to not automatically follow the government. I am not suggesting rioting against it, but doing personal research to create your own position in matters rather than just following. The government can hide a lot from citizens. 
4. The 1970s left citizens unable to fully trust or support the government.
5. This song shows the PTSD that soldiers are left with from Vietnam. Even though the war physically ended, it never stopped replying in the minds of the soldiers. Images of fallen soldiers and children in the midst of the bloodshed continue to play and affect people. The man says how he hopes no one ever experiences what he did. He cannot live his day to day life, like hunting with his son without being haunted by the horrors that occurred in the jungle of Vietnam.]]> 2022-04-20 14:37:31 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2150461935 Camden LaFuze https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2150523098 1. The United States lost the Vietnam War because they were at a major disadvantage, and weren't 100% fully committed to the war. The U.S. had never fought in the type of land that the war was fought on. The war was fought in a jungle which was completely new to them, which didn't help them, and was a huge dissadvantage. When the war was over the U.S. lost because they were in a large amount of debt with how much money they used up. The United States also lost many soldiers during the war. The U.S. wasn't fully commited to the war because they joined the war later than everyone else. So they weren't as prepared as the other countries. 
2.After listening and reading these songs the songs suggest that the men and women that were fighting in the war were most likley middle class people or poor people. in the song "Fortunate Son" the song talks a lot about how the person isn't fortunate, and wasn't born into a rich wealthy family. In the second song the singer talks a lot about family and how they won't die because they want to see their family. 
3.The Pentagon papers had shown what the government was trying to cover up. These papers had opened up peoples eyes to what had really happened and what was going on. Showed people that they were not being told the truth. I think what can be learned from these papers is that the government doesn't want to look bad, so they try to cover stuff up. People need to learn to go into more depth of things instead of just assuming that the government is telling the truth. 
4.The 1970's had changed Americans perspective and opinion on the government. People lost trust for the government, and didn't believe in the government as much. The Pentagon Papers had a huge part in this. People accused the government of only caring about making themselves look good, and only caring about the high classed people. This was a huge part in people seeing the government differently. 
5. This song suggest to me that the war didn't seem like it was over to people. The song talks about violence, and death, as well as family. The song shows how the war had affected families. My biggest takeaway from the song is that the war veterans who fought in the war had to live with what had happened everyday, and it seemed like that affected them. The war had long term affects on the vets, and they thought about it years after the war. ]]> 2022-04-20 15:14:52 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2150523098 Sylaris Denney https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2150564414 1) The United States lost the Vietnam War because they were completely unfamiliar with the terrain or that style of fighting in general, which made more of their tactics obsolete. On top of that, when they did change and adapt, the Vietnamese were practically one step ahead, and dodged everything they threw at them, whether it be tunneling, or even just confusing them so they didn't know who were civilians or soldiers. On top of that, Even if they did "win" as in kill more people or take control for a bit like Afghanistan, the second they ended up leaving, who knew how long it would have stuck. They could have still instantly gone into communism. That is why wars like that are hard to "win."

2) These songs are very interesting. They are both anti war songs during the Vietnam war, yet American Soldiers listened to them. Which is odd, because they were against the war that they were fighting. The songs express real feelings that many Americans felt. It involved issues from the draft, and the social elites that could escape the so called inescapable draft with no consequence. They also sang about the violence and death and time wasted on the war, talking about how horrible it was. 

3)The Pentagon papers show American Citizens the truth about the war. They showed that the government was lying to them, and that America continued to be in Vietnam for a doomed war, because of embarrassment. They reveal war crimes, terrible treatment towards Vietnam citizens, and much worse. It excelled the amount of distrust for the government, and America may never fully gain the trust back.

4) The 1970s were a time where many Americans didn't trust or agree with their government, because of the proven lies that had come out not long before. The covered up information, the elitism, and more caused many Americans to feel taken advantage of and cheated. The backlash caused Nixon to be removed from office because of his paranoia. It also was a time of just complete change, because of the fights for free love and reproduction, which then increased those laws as well. At the end of the 70s, these angers went down, because of the equality acts that were put in, as well as the new president in office. 

5) The song suggests that the Vietnam war never truly ended. It talks about the honest, brutal reality of war. The fact of injury, PTSD, death of many many soldiers, and the long lasting pain it causes the families and the soldiers themselves. Those things don't just go away, and the song represents that. ]]> 2022-04-20 15:39:28 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2150564414 Emeren https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2150759759 1. When it comes to explaining why the United States lost the Vietnam War there's not just one simple response to why it happened, needless to say there were major reasons why they lost. The United States lost the war because of the way it was fought and controlled; the war itself was fought in the jungle which made it harder for the American soldiers because they weren't experienced with this. The United States lost their troops, money, and time as well. The cost of demands were becoming high and many didn't know how to deal with this so they left their country and abandoned their jobs and wasted time. 
2. Spending some time listening to these two songs and understanding what it was referring to was quite interesting.The first song suggested that people could escape the Vietnam War. The second song suggests that the violence that was being done was not just only in Vietnam but in America as well.
3. The Pentagon Papers revealed war crimes and content that were not discussed to other Americans in which shows how the government hides what's going on from American citizens.
4. The 1970s left many to not trust the government mainly because of the Pentagon Papers. The government brought lies to the citizens in which made them lose trust within their government.
5. This song shows the PTSD that soldiers came back home with. This was because the song talked about violence, death, and injuries. The long-term consequences of though was families had to deal with the reality of witnessing death in front of them because of the Vietnam War. Death is already hard enough to deal with but with this it would be even worse because they got the view of what it was really like back then.]]> 2022-04-20 17:44:55 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2150759759 Hayden hlt24 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151248799 1. The United States lost the Vietnam War because it was simply not the nation's number one priority, the effort was too little, too late.  America had gotten involved in Vietnam in hopes to stop the spread of communism in the country.  America simply did not put a ton of it's military power or a large amount of troops into Vietnam which ended up with a loss.  On the other hand the United States and South Vietnam did not lose as many troops as North Vietnam which can be seen as a small victory in the Vietnam war.
2.  I had heard the first song many times before, but had never truly understood what it meant.  It talks about how the military draft is unfair and that some of the "fortunate sons" are able to avoid being sent into war and they never truly understand the war.  On the other hand the "unfortunate sons" are sent to fight in the jungles of vietnam in a seemingly pointless war.  The second song talks more about how the American people were being oppressed in a way and that America had its own problems and didn't need to be invested in a war all the way in Vietnam.
3. In my opinion the Pentagon Papers are an example of how countries can try to cover up their past actions in order to make themselves look better or keep the citizens from knowing the truth.   The Pentagon Papers can show you the impact war can truly have on a nation and how what information you are being fed about the state of a conflict, may not always be true.  Keeping the public informed is very important, which is why this case was taken to the supreme court.
4. The 1970's led Americans to believe that the United States government was not telling all of the truth and their decisions they were making overseas may have not been the best.  One of the factors leading up to this was the Pentagon Papers as the public became informed that Nixon was not telling the truth about how the war was going.  Americans slowly began to lose faith and trust in their government, which can be seen in the media and in music.
5. This song talks a lot about the realities of war and the impacts it can have on a person. In this case how the people that fought in Vietnam felt that they were fighting for nothing. This song just talks a lot about how bad the situation of war is and not only the physical tolls on somebody, but also the mental tolls.]]> 2022-04-21 01:33:13 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151248799 jjones104 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151831629 Erika - love to hear from you!]]> 2022-04-21 10:30:52 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151831629 jjones104 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151835320 Kalam - love to hear from you!]]> 2022-04-21 10:34:14 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151835320 jjones104 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151836256 Maddallen - love to hear from you!]]> 2022-04-21 10:35:11 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151836256 jjones104 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151836391 Leah - love to hear from you!]]> 2022-04-21 10:35:20 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151836391 jjones104 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151836514 Cade - love to hear from you!]]> 2022-04-21 10:35:28 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151836514 jjones104 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151836626 Ariana - love to hear from you!]]> 2022-04-21 10:35:36 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2151836626 Leah lth231 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2153534828
  • America lost to Vietnam because it was full of disadvantages for the Americans. The Viets had the major advantage due to the environment which happened to be a jungle like environment. The United States wasn’t prepared for that sort of climate and in turn it caused a lot of problems for the United States military and left them with their backs wide open.
  • I think those song lyrics talk a lot about how people were often drafted for war, they were forced to go. Most of those soldiers were young adults who weren’t ready to fight in a war. As they say, “I ain’t no military son”.
  • The Pentagon papers give a different perspective on the war. They expose details and hidden activities used during the war. It reveals that America committed war crimes during this specific period and the cruel way the Americans treated the Vietnamese peoples.
  • People began to not trust their government due to the scandals that roamed around. This caused a lot of problems later on and caused a lot of controversy.
  • The song talks about the brutality of war and how it never really ended. With everything the US had done and the effects it had on soldiers with injury and mental damage, which are still present even today.

    • ]]>     2022-04-22 12:46:30 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2153534828     Kalam Denney https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2153737573 1. The U.S. lost the Vietnam war because they had a lot of things going against them. They were in unfamiliar territory fighting in a style they weren't used to. 

    2. Some Americans during the Vietnam war were terrified. Actually, almost all of them were. They were about Americans not wanting the war and thinking its terrible and murderous.

    3. The Pentagon Papers show things that the American Government didn't want to be seen. They reveled war crimes America committed and how badly they were treating the citizens of Vietnam.

    4. In the 1970s, Americans started to defy their government. Before then, Americans were like toddlers who believe everything their parents say and look up to them, but in the 70s they turned into defiant teens who started thinking for themselves and thought that the government was out to get them and didn't know how to do anything right.

    5. This song suggests that Americans viewed the war as something terrible and that never should have happened. The only thing it brought, they thought, was pain and death. Americans treated Vietnamese terrible for no reason. This happens in any war. Innocent people get killed just because they live their and the people fighting just say "that's the cost that has to be payed."]]>     2022-04-22 15:12:49 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2153737573     Ariana anp24 https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2154008054 1. The US had many disadvantages in the war. The new field was one of the main disadvantages at the time. The war was fought in the jungle which was completely new to the US. Naturally this was an advantage to Vietnam because they were used to the conditions of the jungle.
    2. These were two very unique songs. The emotions were shown through not only the lyrics but also the tone and it shows the thoughts during the time.
    3. The Pentagon Papers showed what the government was trying to cover up. Some information was exposed and to automatically scared the population and presented major issues. This showed that you needed to look into everything to support before going in blind.
    4. The 1970s left the population scared and made them wonder where they should lay their trust when it comes to the government and political leaders
    5. The song presents some of the bad things during the war. It describes the environment and the emotions during the war.]]>     2022-04-22 18:46:56 UTC https://padlet.com/jjones104/f7uma5sqae9thqja/wish/2154008054