Discussion 2 (5th/8th) by K.Sall

2018-03-16 17:06:53 UTC

2018-03-16 17:07:55 UTC

Hi-DW

2018-03-16 17:15:55 UTC

I agree with what pretty much all of them said in how woman always had to take the blame for stuff they didn’t do. BC

2018-03-16 17:16:30 UTC

Justine takes the blame for murder when it isn’t her fault. This relates to the idea that women at the time were treated less than men and given responsibilities often regarding home and household chores. This is important because it shows the way women were treated less than men especially in this time period. -Maggie

2018-03-16 17:16:40 UTC

Victor: God, Creature: Lucifer, William and Justine: Adam and Eve? (Victims who according to Frankenstein and Paradise lost were side characters who were oblivious to the conflict of the story yet became the victims of the creation of the god of the story. ~EB

2018-03-16 17:17:36 UTC

I agree with the notion that Justine reinforces the role of women at the time. They were seen as less than men, and multiple examples show them as weak or resigned. Even though Justine was innocent, she resigned to her condemnation. Such weakness is described in Elizabeth as well. Even though Elizabeth gives a desperate, pleading testimony, it does not affect the jury or judge’s decision, and this judging group was likely predominately male, if not completely.

- Andrew

2018-03-16 17:17:40 UTC

Justine's role continues to portray how females were thought of during this time because she took the fall for Williams death. "I did confess, but I confessed a lie. I confused, that I might obtain absolution... (167). Woman at this time had to take the blame for things that had nothing to do with them. Shelly includes Justine and what she did so we can foreshadow the roles of females later in the novel. (Yousra)

2018-03-16 17:17:46 UTC

Shelly’s mother was an avid advocate for women’s rights and Shelly is able to use this book and the female characters to explain problems she might be identifying in her time. -DW

2018-03-16 17:18:33 UTC

she continues to show how female characters didn't have prominent roles in the story. Also most women had tragic events occurred to them in the story like Justine and victors mother d.c

2018-03-16 17:19:27 UTC

Do each of the characters, male and female, represent something greater?
I feel that a lot of the talk about female characters is just repetition of the plot. It would be better if everyone talked about how they feel about it, and how this theme is reflected in other ways throughout the story. -AG

2018-03-16 17:19:44 UTC

Justine says, "I confessed a lie", menacing she didn't do it but she still confessed to doing it. She does it because she knows despite her defense, the men in the story will decide her fate, as the men of this time period were very dominant and made these important decisions. -KO

2018-03-16 17:19:57 UTC

I agree with the people saying that it was important for Shelley to add this in because her mother was a feminist, and it kind of brought attention to how women were treated at the time. Also, Justine’s trial was not a very fair one, because all the “evidence” brought to court wasn’t really great evidence, but they condemned her anyway without really giving her story that proved her innocence any thought. Women and men were not treated equally- RA

2018-03-16 17:20:22 UTC

Connecting to paradise lost, William just as Justine are both stepping stones to something bigger (the creatures thirst of revenge against Victor) just as the ‘Devil’ used Adam and Eve to get to God not so much having to do with those characters in particular. -C.O

2018-03-16 17:20:54 UTC

Justine’s role as what is essentially a catalyst to spur negative developments in Victor also serves to belittle the role of women in the context of the story, as they don’t serve as characters so much as plot devices to drive the male characters’ progression forward -EM

2018-03-16 17:21:16 UTC

Justine’s role continues to portray females were thought of during this time because she like the other women in the story, are not thought of highly by the general public, the women also usually take the fall for others, like Victors mother getting sick instead so that she could help Elizabeth, Elizabeth thinking she caused the death of William, and Justine for not defending herself of being accused of Williams murder. Shelley probably included this because it is one of the traits that was passed down from her mom, and she wanted to bring awareness to the fact that what some people do has an unfair effect on the women back then. Grace Spaletto

2018-03-16 17:21:18 UTC

Question Break

2018-03-16 17:21:27 UTC

I agree that the author is using the position of women in the story to show how it’s unfair and how it needs to change. This also reflects Shelly and her mother were both feminists and fought for women’s rights. EH

2018-03-16 17:21:47 UTC

The sheer difference in perceived gender power is also more pronounced in the trial scene. Justine recalls how she was threatened and personally attacked, up to a point where she thought she was guilty herself. This reinforces the idea of female submission to males in that time period and society.

- Andrew

2018-03-16 17:22:36 UTC

I feel like Mary Shelly related to Justine and what she was going through. I feel like Mary was going through similar things as Justine was going through and probably had similar experiences in her time with the discrimination of women and women being “out of place” in those times and women needed to stand up for themself and Mary was calling for action through her writing. O.R.

2018-03-16 17:23:07 UTC

I agree with how Shelley might’ve written this book not only for the scary story competition but also to make people aware of how women were treated as less than men during this time and didn’t have as many rights as men because they were simply thought of as inferior to men. - CR

2018-03-16 17:24:45 UTC

I definitely agree with the idea that Justine was a powerful representation and portrayal of how women were seen during this time period in general. Although she was innocent when accused of murder, and then eventually condemned, she still took the blame of this. This submission to the terrible thing that is happening to her is a clear indication of the weakness that people seemed to view women to have, which is very, very sad. When the most awful thing that could possibly be happening to her is happening, especially wrongfully, she will not stand up for herself. This speaks volumes as to how women were seen especially, because it shows that they were thought of as such weak people that they would not even stand up when their lives were at stake. -AW

2018-03-16 17:24:49 UTC

Eve was tricked by Lucifer to eat the apple. In the novel, Justine was condemned without really any fair trial or fair evidence and she just accepted the fact that she was going to die in the end. The people in town kind of forced her to think what’s the point if she’s just going to be condemned anyway, the same way Eve accepted that she was going to be thrown out of heaven because she let herself be influenced by Lucifer- RA

2018-03-16 17:24:52 UTC

Eve gets convinced to eat the forbidden fruit and I think it connects to how Justine had been convinced that this was her fate even though she knew she was innocent and took the blame. -KU

2018-03-16 17:24:58 UTC

I agree that the story is highly biased mainly as a man had narrated it. In the novel, women are almost dismissed and their point of view is not represented. AJ

2018-03-16 17:26:27 UTC

In both stories, females are portrayed as weak-willed, and are willing to submit to whims of others easily. This is seen in Eve agreeing to eat the Forbidden Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge with only a bit of persuasion, and in Justine surrendering to fate without much of a fight at all. -EM

2018-03-16 17:26:52 UTC

The way the roles of Justine and Elizabeth relate to paradise lost is, that Victor screwed up and Justine died. Just like Eve screwed up and Adam ended up screwing up also. Then Elizabeth tries to help but fails. Like the son of god in paradise lost. I.C.

2018-03-16 17:27:04 UTC

Both Justine and Elizabeth end up with a similar story to Eve in Paradise Lost or the Bible. While Eve was tricked into eating the forbidden fruit by the serpent, Elizabeth and Justine fell victim to the actions of Victor’s creature. Although the actual blame and outcomes were not their fault, each female characters are forced to accept the unfortunate turn of events. This situation relates Victor to Satan, as ultimately Victor is at fault, and his actions directly cause the death of William, the trial of Justine, and Elizabeth growing sorrowful and gradually more depressed and sad.

- Andrew

2018-03-16 17:27:45 UTC

Eve is blamed in paradise lost even though Adam was just as much at fault in the specific case and that also carries over in Frankenstein as Justine is blamed for the death of William. The women are basically taking the fall for the actions of men and that also illustrates how women are being portrayed in the novel. (Krishna).

2018-03-16 17:27:46 UTC

Justine had been influenced by a bigger power which at this moment would be the crowd blindly forcing her to take the blame. As Eve was influenced by the Devil to eat the forbidden fruit. Which also influenced Adam to also. They are innocents that are being driven to do the wrong thing, and they can not control it. -C.O

plesniak2356 — 2018-03-16 17:27:56 UTC

Justine had been influenced by what she had been through to roll over and take the blame for the murder, sort of giving into the situation she had been put in. Elizabeth had been put into a situation after she was adopted by sort of becoming a belonging of Victors, also being put into the situation and giving into it.
J.P

2018-03-16 17:28:24 UTC

Elizabeth and Justine can relate to the role of Eve in Paradise lost because they all didn’t have a say on what their fate was going to be, and it was decided by someone else for them. Justine and Eve were both forced into a citation that caused them to take or pass on blame. They were all easily influenced and controlled by others .Grace Spaletto

2018-03-16 17:28:42 UTC

Justine and Eve’s roles in Frankenstein and Paradise Lost are similar in that they both had to take the blame for what went wrong. They are also different though because Eve is the one to blame in Paradise Lost for sinning while Justine was forced into her role by the people around her. Though Justine was innocent, she still had to accent the blame and die because of it. EH

2018-03-16 17:30:41 UTC

I think that Eve is compared to Justine and Elizabeth, I think this because like Eve both Justine and Elizabeth are creating the monster in their own right. This is because they where fueling what Victor would do while making the monster. Eve had fueled or convinced Adam to eat the apple and become banished from the garden. Along with him not taking the blame because there is no more people to take the blame for him. - CM

2018-03-16 17:32:24 UTC

Justine and Elizabeth have similar roles that can relate to Paradise lost because just like Eve they really don't have control of their fates and it is in the hands of men. (J.S)

2018-03-16 17:32:35 UTC

Elizabeth is forced to except a future that’s out of her reach and that she can not control. She is already to be Victor’s like property. She’s been controlled since being adopted and has very little to no say. She’s forced to accept Justine’s death even if she knows other wise or better. When she had spoken up for Justine no one had listened nor did they try to listen. -C.O

2018-03-16 17:36:19 UTC

I think that Victor when he originally creates the monster feels regret and therefore tries to forget it and not take responsibility. Whereas later when he realizes the destruction and this responsibly that he needs to take because he can't let it kill others without action.

2018-03-16 17:36:41 UTC

Victor blames fate for his achievements such as when his mom died and blames fate. He eventually will blame everything on fate. This relates to the creature he creates because he thinks that fate is completely to blame, and not himself. When he does something that went well such as his discoveries, he blames himself. He often blames himself after seeing the negative consequences of his actions. (Maggie).

2018-03-16 17:36:54 UTC

V.P.: “My mother was dead, but we had still duties which we ought to perform; we must continue our course with the rest and learn to think ourselves fortunate whilst one remains whom the spoiler has not seized,”(70). When his mother dies, Victor doesn’t really question or dwell on it, he simply just accepts it as something that happened outside of his control and he couldn’t do anything about it (aka fate).

2018-03-16 17:37:35 UTC

he has his intentions and how he wants things to go but he seems to believe fate controls how his ideas and things will eventually turn out d.c

2018-03-16 17:37:46 UTC

He does blame the creation of this creature on fate and thinks that this just happened because of nature and fate had brought him to doing so because of how the nature of his life had worked. He got these beliefs after he realized that the monster is ugly and not what he wanted it to be, he started with good intentions when creating the monster but when he realizes this monster is bad he blames it on fate.
O.R.

2018-03-16 17:38:05 UTC

Yes, I think that Victor blames his misfortunes on fate, and responsibility for his achievements most of the time. For example, Victor wasn't really upset when his mom died because he blamed that on fate. When Justine died he didn't say anything because he said that was her fate, and he has no right to involve in that. I think that Victor takes responsibility for his achievements because he wants to be know and famous. (Y.B)

2018-03-16 17:38:06 UTC

I disagree with those that said that Victor felt that fate was to blame for Justine being condemned and his brother William dying. He did not blame fate for those deaths, he blamed himself and he began to take responsibility for those deaths by saying that HE was the one who was responsible because he made the monster, and if he hadn’t made the monster Justine and William would be alive. He also begins to feel guilty. -RA

2018-03-16 17:38:11 UTC

He had blamed fate on multiple occasions, first when his mother died. He had said that it’s natural and it would eventually happen and he had shown no emotion towards it. Then when his brother had been murdered he had said that his death was fate because the creature was going to kill him and it couldn’t be helped. Even though we know that if he hadn’t created the creature or confessed the truth to himself it wouldn’t end as I had. And then Justine being condemned he had said that it had been fate for her to have died and the the creature was a achievement that was also fate. -C.O

2018-03-16 17:39:13 UTC

Victor blames fate for all the misfortunes around him. When his mother dies, he blames it on fate and doesn’t mourn her death. The same thing happens when Justine is condemned for the murder of victors brother. Even during this time, he doesn’t blame himself for creating the monster and letting it go. After Justine is killed, some character change becomes evident as he does occasionally admit that it is his fault, but he is still blaming fate in the end. EH

2018-03-16 17:40:25 UTC

Yes Victor blames fate for his misfortunes. First, Victor believes that it was fate that his mother died and it didn’t matter because it was bound to happen eventually. Also, after Victor created his monster, he avoided it and let it free to the world without the knowledge of how it would effect the world just because he didn’t like his creation. But later in the story, when Victor meets the monster and learns that it has feeling when it confronts him, he agrees to go with it to its house, so maybe Victors opinion changed slightly because he began to realize that he hadn’t created just a mindless creature, but something with feelings that might actually be valuable. Also when he is telling the story to Walton, he had to take responsibility for the monster, so with time I think that he begins to blame himself for misfortunes.Grace Spaletto

2018-03-16 17:41:09 UTC

Victor blames fate on things he makes himself believe he couldn’t have done anything about, but in reality he uses fate as an excuse to not make himself feel bad since he knows he could’ve done something about it or when something is his fault. Then when there’s a positive outcome to things, he takes responsibility for it. -CR

2018-03-16 17:41:25 UTC

“But I, the true murderer, felt the never-dying worm alive in my bosom, which allowed of no hope or consolation” (Shelley pg. 85). Victor takes responsibility for Justine and Williams death, and he begins to feel more and more guilty- RA

2018-03-16 17:41:32 UTC

Any negative events in victors life early on blames fate for any misfortune, he blames fate for the start of his love for science. He also blames fate for the death of his mother, which becomes justification for not mourning her. Victor praises himself when creating the creature, calling himself a god calling the creation, “an accomplishment of my toils”. -DW

2018-03-16 17:43:09 UTC

“Frankenstein, your son, your kinsman, your early, much-loved friend; he who would spend each vital drop of blood for your sakes, who had no thought nor sense of joy except as it is mirrored also in your dear countenances, who would fill the air with blessings and spend his life in serving you-he bids you weep, to shed countless tears; happy beyond his hopes, if thus inexorable fate be satisfied, and if the destruction pause the peace of the grave have succeeded to your sad tormenta!”(Chp 8) Here you can see how fate is being used to justify his actions. (VD)

2018-03-16 17:43:30 UTC

I believe that his habit of blame fate could have manifested from a young age. His father had also connected their misfortune to fate. “Our misfortune is doubly hard to us; we have not only lost that lovely darling boy, but this poor girl, whom I sincerely love, is to be torn away by even a worse fate.” -C.O

2018-03-16 17:43:35 UTC

I think that at the beginning when creating his creature he had good intentions, but when his creation goes completely wrong I feel like he just blames the whole thing on fate. Also he blames his mother's death on fate and just seems to breeze right past it. (J.S)

2018-03-16 17:45:32 UTC

I think Victor can be seen as god while Frankenstein is Lucifer since he was taken away his humanity and love from his creator. What happens later with William can be seen as enticing Eve with the Apple and bringing suffering with them. S.A

2018-03-16 17:46:38 UTC

I think that Victor definitely blames fate for his misfortunes, but takes responsibility for his accomplishments, because it is just as much easier for him to not have to take the emotional burden for bad things that have happened. I feel as though victor has a very difficult time dealing with death and sad emotions like defeat or failure, and by blaming these things on fate and not himself he can come to terms with bad situation and feelings much much easier. -AW

2018-03-16 17:47:41 UTC

Victor being labeled as the creator makes him the “godly” figure of the story, and brings his story closely related to Adam and Eve because he created the creature like god had created Adam and Eve and leaves the story open to analysis on if god and victor have similar stories and if the title of being the creator is him taking responsibility for what the creature does like god or just gives him the satisfaction of what he has done in the world of science. O.R.

2018-03-16 17:48:19 UTC

Victor being called the ‘creater’ by the creature connects to paradise lost because Victor is like God and the creature is like the Devil, God had made heaven and Lucifer (the Devil) was kicked out by god. As Victor had kicked out the creature, they both basically have been kicked out by those who had created them or they had looked up to. They both are rejected souls that want revenge for being rejected.

2018-03-16 17:48:26 UTC

The deaths of Victor’s family members were mainly because of fate and because of that he blamed “fate” for everything, using it as an excuse for his bad life choices. - Dominique

2018-03-16 17:48:39 UTC

As Victor starts to call the creature his “creation”, he starts to understand the responsibility and blame that comes with it. Once Justine is executed, he starts to become more depressed, understanding that he, ultimately, is the cause of all the death and suffering inflicted upon the family via the creature. This also links the creature to the Devil, especially in Victor’s point of view. The first words Victor speaks to the creature is the term “Devil”, as he blamed it for the harm it caused. The creature is also linked to Adam and Eve, and linked Victor to God. Victor did not expect the creature do be a hideous murderer, but he ended up leaving or banishing his creation.

- Andrew Duran

2018-03-16 19:50:17 UTC

8th hour is better- Patrick A

2018-03-16 19:50:21 UTC

The start of 8th hour

2018-03-16 19:50:35 UTC

Period 8

2018-03-16 19:50:51 UTC

Heyo- Q

2018-03-16 19:50:57 UTC

Quin haftl is cool

2018-03-16 19:51:21 UTC

Ok yes ma'am

2018-03-16 19:54:15 UTC

I agree that the power of women shines through with them but I believe that their relations to the family is what makes the women more relatable to Shelly- Patrick A

2018-03-16 19:55:23 UTC

I agree with Caroline, and Amber, Shelly characterizes the female characters as being strong -Jonathan Theis

2018-03-16 19:56:37 UTC

I agree with Patrick what he said about the women’s role. It is what i summarized also. - Q

2018-03-16 19:56:39 UTC

Shelley has close connections with Justine due to the feeling of death around them. Justine is being accused of killing William and Mary Shelley is accusing herself of being the cause of her mothers death. A parallel between Justine and Mary Shelley being around death.

2018-03-16 19:57:02 UTC

I agree with Patrick and I believe they are vital to the story to make Victor realize that in Elizabeth's case that he loved her and in justines case he begins to feel guilt and the effects of death. This helps by giving strong women characters that readers and Mary Shelly herself can connect to. -Emily

2018-03-16 19:57:39 UTC

DONT FORGET TO WRITE YOUR NAME or initials SO I KNOW IT IS YOU :)

2018-03-16 19:58:13 UTC

It makes sense that Williams death gets blamed on Justine such as how Mary Shelly’s mothers death would have been blamed on her with her mother dying in childbirth. The female characters and a sort of softness and sadness and also adds context to Victors isolation since he is around these women who are associated with death and sadness -B.P

2018-03-16 19:58:31 UTC

Both of the two women can be see as a trigger to Victors guilt and sadness from losing someone who is seen as "family" to victor. With the two women both dying with also the death of his mother can show how dark and lost Mary Shellys family relations were. She lost so many close relationships and this is how she portrayed it in Frankenstein. Julianna Mandarino

2018-03-16 19:58:41 UTC

I like what Ryan said about the similarities between Shelley, the author, and Justine, the character in the story. I see this as a way for Shelley to fit her life and her struggles into her story. She may use this as an outlet for her emotions or as something to give the story a more detailed background because of her personal experience the details will be extremely accurate and realistic. -Will Hamilton 8th

2018-03-16 19:59:12 UTC

I agree with Amber with her quote as that since Justine is being accused of a murder, she is still showing humanity in expressing the kindness that Victor is showing

2018-03-16 19:59:23 UTC

-Mossimo

2018-03-16 19:59:41 UTC

I agree with the statements made about Justine and Elizabeth being more submissive characters, whose hardships are influences to Victor. Elizabeth's suffering ultimately brought her to victor, and Justines death caused Victor to realize the severity of his situation and feel guilt. The women further the gothism, by being innocent and pure yet facing such hardships. - Delaney

2018-03-16 19:59:51 UTC

Although Mary Shelly’s parents and background would make us assume that she would’ve developed more strong willed/demanding women, She instead tends to stick to the time period of the story. Most likely realizing that such “radical” ideas might create some future political impact, She chooses to keep to the “golden standard of women” for each of her female characters. These outlines make each of the characters seem more relatable and more likely to actually exist, rather be in a fiction book. Justine and Elizabeth are also tied to the Frankenstein family by death, which is a recurring theme of all females in Frankenstein.

2018-03-16 19:59:58 UTC

Luke^^

2018-03-16 20:00:13 UTC

I agree with what was said about how women in the story are usually brought up with something that has to do with sadness, or death -mariana

2018-03-16 20:00:35 UTC

Aiyana (question 1)- Elizabeth and Justine serve as a way to characterize Victor. Like when Elizabeth is a really calm kid and Victor is a little bit of a meany. Ooooo I didn’t know anything about Mary Shelley’s life, that’s gnarley. Patrick’s comment about being an outsider was very interesting I haven’t heard that before. Also Elizabeth and Justine are very sad and suffering —> the annotation of die with you says that lots of Shelley’s family was suicidal.

2018-03-16 20:01:13 UTC

I agree with all of you guys, I believe that the women are portrayed as strong but innocent women. I also agree with amber by making the point that Justine is showing humanity and sees victor as a kind person - js

2018-03-16 20:02:25 UTC

Authors typically put a little piece of themselves into their work, so it’s not surprising that Mary Shelley added a bit of her own past to these characters, females especially solely because most of what had happened had happened to the women in her life. So I agree with those who said it was a personal connection. -KP

2018-03-16 20:05:37 UTC

I’m not sure if the female characters are testing the males.......????

2018-03-16 20:06:07 UTC

I agree with Jonathan and his statement about bringing out the worst of victor. I also agree with it relating to Adam and Eve and how eve brought out the worst in Adam. Justine and Elizabeth make victor suffer more because towards the end of the chapter we saw that victor was suicidal. - js

2018-03-16 20:07:07 UTC

The two women can be portrayed as eve in paradise lost because by them dying and the guilt that follows, they are testing Victor in his mental state because as we learned throughout the story, victor is shown to have suicidal thoughts, as well as Elizabeth was. So by bringing out the worst in Victor, they are pulling him, or peer pressure him to a state where he will be drawn out of paradise (death) ~ Julianna Mandarino
(Agreeing with Grace and Jonathan)

2018-03-16 20:07:21 UTC

I agree with grace and Jonathan about Justine and Satan being parallels within the two stories because they both bring out the bad of the main characters. Justine brings out the bad in Victor and Satan brings out the bad in Adam and Eve. -Will Hamilton 8th

2018-03-16 20:07:43 UTC

I agree with Grace's point. Elizabeth and Justine do bring out the worst in Victor, I think it's because their deaths made him realize the horror he had unleashed into the world.

2018-03-16 20:07:56 UTC

^j.d

2018-03-16 20:08:16 UTC

I agree with crash becasus they weren't really guilty because they were influenced to commit the crime like satin with eve and the monster with Justine.

2018-03-16 20:08:29 UTC

Emily^

2018-03-16 20:08:44 UTC

I think that the men, Adam and Victor, refuse to take responsibility for their choices so they try to push it on others, Adam on Eve and then Victor on anyone but himself - ca

2018-03-16 20:09:04 UTC

Luke-
As stated before, Justine and Elizabeth are tied to the Frankenstein family because of death. Eve could be tied to the downfall of mankind, and there exile from The Gardens of eden. Tim stated that after Justine dies is parallel to the consumption of the forbidden fruit. Patrick stated, that like Eve, all/most of the women in Frankenstein brought upon pain to the rest. Justine’s death brought Misery as did the forbidden fruit. I agree to all of the above.

2018-03-16 20:09:39 UTC

I agree that the female characters bring out the worst of Victors because like we see after Justine’s death Victors becomes depressed from blaming him self or her death. I also agree with what Will is saying because with Justine’s death Victors realizes his role in what has happened and his part of putting this pain on Elizabeth and his family .

2018-03-16 20:09:43 UTC

The forbidden fruit could represent the monster. Satan is convincing Eve to eat the forbidden fruit which could represent that Victor is giving his “torrent of light” to the monster. Justine could represent Adam as Adam and Eve are both thrown out of Paradise just like how Justine dies and Victor feels a painful guilt that the monster killed William and could’ve saved Justine.

2018-03-16 20:09:45 UTC

-Sarah

2018-03-16 20:09:52 UTC

-Mossimo

2018-03-16 20:10:00 UTC

I liked the point about what Crash said about how Eve (paralleled with Elizabeth and Justine) aren’t entirely guilt-ridden about what they’ve done. The roles they share help create the downfall in Frankenstein along with Victor. - Cymphany

2018-03-16 20:10:16 UTC

Aiyana (question 2)- Again, Elizabeth and Justine are able to show the worst part of Victor just like Eve does that to Adam. —> the female characters test the male characters. Tim’s comment about how Justine dying was kinda like eating the forbidden fruit was pretty interesting. Crash —>Ladies get blamed for stuff connection was interesting. Monster could be the forbidden fruit or Satan or God. Wowza. Interesting. The forbidden fruit is the monster because Victor got the knowledge and was afraid of it.

2018-03-16 20:10:27 UTC

I think what Carlin said about the monster relating to the forbidden fruit is very interesting because like Tim also added it parallels by the creation of the monster being unknown and dangerous and also although things brought knowledge they were also very dangerous. -AD

2018-03-16 20:14:13 UTC

I agree with grace, I think he should've created a plan on what he was going to do with the monster because after creating it, he didn't know what to expect so he went to sleep and thought it was going to work out. Victor then felt guilty because it caused the death of Justine. And he was overwhelmed with guilt. - js

2018-03-16 20:15:18 UTC

I think leaving alone although the majority of his no responsibility with the monster was important in the way it turned out, it also has to play into emotional irresponsibility and when you abandon this brand new creature and basically leave him as if he's nothing, the creature will of course get mad and twisted. The lack of caring for the monster I feel greatly contributes. It wasn't just him leaving it alone for the chance for it to escape, it's also abandoning it emotionally and making it feel unloved and therefore murder. -AD

2018-03-16 20:16:03 UTC

There is a lack of personal responsibility when it comes to the death of both William and Justine. First we see a lack of personal responsibility when Victor allows the creature to escape. Once the creature escaped, his assumed crime was the murder of William. Since Victor is responsible for creating the creature, he is responsible for Williams death. Justine was blamed for the death of Justine and she had to take the blame for it. Victor was aware that she is not guilty, however he did not take personal responsibly for this. Both of these crimes were not committed by Victor, however he is responsible. But although he does not take responsibility, he feels very guilty about it. -SL

2018-03-16 20:16:23 UTC

Patrick A- It was just confirmed that William and Justines death were indeed the fault of his monster. Victor had sacrificed his social, emotional, and personal health to make this creature to help mankind, but the moment it was created, he saw it as a monster, a demon, and left it. This is very irresponsible, as even if he had been a failure, a real scientist would stick with his findings, instead of leaving it to roam amongst. This resulted in the deaths of two people very close to him, and while I cannot post the quote, during the trial, he knows Justine was innocent but didn't take responsibility for it and let another person die.

2018-03-16 20:16:31 UTC

I agree with grace, in that it was very irresponsible of Victor to just leave the Monster alone, which then led to the death of William and Justine. Also, Will had an interesting point that Victor should have prepared more for this Monster, and that he should have been ready to take care of the monster. He should have been prepared for what he was getting into. He was too obsessed in the idea of discovering something new --Jonathan Theis

2018-03-16 20:16:59 UTC

The discussion happening right now reminds me of the domino effect, because Victor left the creature to its own devices in the beginning, as well as not telling anyone of his creation, it aided in shaping the shapes of the deaths that occurred later. This can also be linked with fate I think tied in with personal responsibility, because he had to have known that it would ultimately be his downfall in contributing to his own decisions.

- Cymphany

2018-03-16 20:17:48 UTC

I think that by leaving the creature by himself was ultimately what led to the creature feeling abandoned and alone, and being motivated to find his creator. If victor had not left the monster by himself, the monster might have stayed in Ingolstadt and not killed William. Victor should have mentored the monster, and shown him morality and how to behave in society, and not left the creature to fend for himself in a new world. ~Ryan Tsau

2018-03-16 20:17:55 UTC

She victor realizes that the monster he created has brought so much destruction towards his family through the death of William and the arrest (later death) of Justine, he cowardly confronts Justine, and is unwilling to take responsibility for Williams murder. He does this because he thinks everyone will think he is crazy, but by not speaking up, he allowed Justine to be killed and later leading to his guilt.
This shows him not being able to let himself talking personal responsibility for those deaths.

Plus, he was very selfish and didn't take care of monster which cause it do cause havoc, which shows his lack of personal responsibility. ~Julianna Mandarino

tierrablanca7368 — 2018-03-16 20:18:10 UTC

I don’t believe that Victor’s lack of responsibility led to William’s death because at that point in time Victor thought the monster to only be after him. Also the monster was newly created and didn’t necessarily have control over its faculties. Eventually Victor does become responsible for Justine’s death, but even if he had, would the people have been able to stop Frankenstein’s monster, or even believe him?
-HT

2018-03-16 20:18:23 UTC

Jane what’s so funny

2018-03-16 20:19:32 UTC

Luke-
Victor’s responsibility and lack of open-mindedness is what ultimately resulted in Justine and Will’s death. If he had been accepting of his creation, which is a marvel of science therefore fulfilling his dream, it might not have done such deeds against him. As Mossimo said, the creature was basically a dog. I disagree with this statement, because the creature new how to speak and it was very intelligent. Victor just ditching the “dog” on the street was what lost it’s obedience.

2018-03-16 20:20:14 UTC

Good

2018-03-16 20:20:27 UTC

goof

2018-03-16 20:20:35 UTC

I agree with what Amber said about his lack of responsibility right after making the monster, if he showed that he cared about monster maybe it would have turn out differently and the guilt that Victor later feels could have been avoided. -Sarah

2018-03-16 20:20:42 UTC

Aiyana (question 3)- When he made the monster, Victor didn’t have personal responsibility because he doesn’t take care of himself at all. Then he left the monster in a room and went to bed. Since Victor left the monster, the monster must’ve learned to fend for itself by killing stuff or whatever. The brain the monster got must’ve not had the capacity for empathy. Before Victor made the monster, he didn’t actually think about what he was really doing —> he really just wanted to make something snazzy. Victor didn’t do anything when he decided the monster killed his brother.

2018-03-16 20:20:49 UTC

Good point mossimo. You wouldn't raise a child or a dog without being responsible for them. They have to be taught morality and what you should do because if you don't, it will act more instinctually than human. People without parents and father figures are more likely to be murderers and other criminals, but if he had been a good responsible parent that taught the creature, it could be more responsible. - PA

2018-03-16 20:21:00 UTC

I like what Kishori said because it also ties to what Cymphany said in the channel about domino effect. It shows how victor failed to think about the possible reprecussions of his actions and creating the creature.

2018-03-16 20:24:48 UTC

2018-03-16 20:25:09 UTC

I like the comparison between God creating Adam and Eve and Victor has created the Monster. Interesting view, since previously characterized the monster as the apple, not as Adam and Eve. Jonathan theis

2018-03-16 20:25:10 UTC

I agree with how crash said that the creation of Adam and Eve as well as the creature and the not caring enough of them led to them reaping the consequences. Adam and Eve were not helped to combat Satan and Frankenstein was not taught morals therefore they both had consequences. -AD

2018-03-16 20:26:45 UTC

I definitely agree with what Julianna said about how God is similar to victor because they both created two different creatures. However, I disagree with the idea that Adam and Eve are similar to the creature, as I believe the creature is more similar to Satan because Satan directly tried to destroy things for God, just as the creature killed Victors brother and tries to bring struggles to his life.

2018-03-16 20:27:16 UTC

Aiyana (question 4)- God is creator dude in PL, Victor is the creator of the Monster. WAIT IS THE MONSTER ADAM AND EVE??! So the forbidden fruit is the murder. Wowza. Interesting.

2018-03-16 20:27:20 UTC

i agree with what everyone is saying and how victor who created the monster felt guilt because of his danger he brought. It can be compared to how God created Adam and Eve and they sinned and brought sin upon themselves. - is

2018-03-16 20:27:26 UTC

I liked how Crash made the connection between God and Victor, and the creature with Satan. I think how the reference to Victor as his “creator” (as said by the creature) directly ties into Paradise Lost with how Satan loathes God for banishing him even though he essentially created him and Hell, labeling him as a hypocrite. - Cymphany

tierrablanca7368 — 2018-03-16 20:27:48 UTC

I agree that Victor could be better considered as a symbol for Adam and Eve if one is to consider knowledge as the forbidden fruit. In Paradise Lost, it is Adam that falls for the temptation of the forbidden fruit and so does Victor (knowledge), not God.

2018-03-16 20:27:53 UTC

The one agreeing with Julianna was Grace^^^

2018-03-16 20:27:58 UTC

Luke-
Victor is being characterized as a creator, or a God. The book could be a innuendo how it feels to be a god, or how god felt. He failed, and had to send his only son to save us from our sins. He took a consequence for his actions trusting Adam and Eve, or the creature with other life and now everyone suffers.

2018-03-16 20:28:05 UTC

As one power gets stronger, another rises to challenge it. Like Dark Knight and Starwars, the villains rose only from the power of the heroes. This relates to Frankenstein and Paradise Lost as they both made their demons. God could've promoted Satan to a higher job or head of Hell, but instead, they rose against God and they raged a war. Frankenstein could've taken a more responsible role but instead, lead to a lack of care from the monster and makes the monster into a monster.

2018-03-16 20:28:11 UTC

-PA

2018-03-16 20:28:37 UTC

This shows the parallels of how Mary Shelly wrote Victor and God. They both create something God creates Adam and Eve, and Victor creates his creature. They also both posses this knowledge that leads to pain and suffering. God has it originally and gives it to Adam and Eve, whilst Victor has it and gives it to Elizabeth. Tim

2018-04-12 17:15:15 UTC

Q1: Walton decides to discontinue his journey when he is sure if they go further, him and his crew would die. He probably also learned from observing Victor, that knowledge and glory is not worth risking people’s life for, and in the end it doesn’t get a person very far. Victors loved ones were killed because he didn’t know at what point to stop pursuing knowledge and glory, sanity didn’t overrule him. But for Walton, sanity overrule and he knew when to turn back.
Grace Spaletto

2018-04-12 17:19:53 UTC

I think Walton let sanity overrule him when victor told him about his story and how fame and glory led him to insanity. I also agree with Daniel when he said victor wasn’t always insane, how he started off with an interest in science, but was driven to insanity, and Walton could’ve been on a similar path had victor not warned him about these dangers. -kelly