• Main topic

• Main points discussed on topic (cite classmates, give 'em credit!)

"Reinventing the field"

Afrofuturist Rooms- Met period rooms

• approach for acknowledging

  • and reparations

• how to move forward not bound by Western colonialist structures

  • regurgitating old info isn't productive

  • requires engagement to contribute valuable content to this field

We WILL have a great semester together!

12:30pm App Theater Aida Opera

• two 90 minute acts, 30 minute intermission at 2pm (interview with cast members but like just for fun)

• box office open until 3pm make sure to tell dr. peters before then...

• director commentary involves the same content we will be covering in this cast

Topic: What is preservation to you?

Class Charter= acknowledgements, hopes, dreams

• embrace discord in discussion

• disagreement isn't personal, it is integral to generating trust and new ideas

• embrace the tangents, discussion isn't linear

• ACTIVE

• discussion: collecting information about a topic

• argument: trying to convince someone of a particular point of view

• EMBRACE DIFFERENCE

• COMPLEXITY

• sometimes people get excited! encourage that while allowing space for people to formulate their thoughts

  
  

Background from Dr. Peters:

• tangible vs. intangilble

• intertwined with whiteness

  • as in curation of preserved items

  • how its preserved

  • techniques of preservation

  • the idea that things should be preserved if that was not the original intention

    • ex. navajo sand paintings= whole point is to have these degrade

Ideological, physical, and political (making a statement about something, often used in political environments) types of preservations

• people as icons

Aida

• interaction of western powers and the Near East

• later part of the 18th century

• hallmark of orientalist approach to material

Dendur

• variety of types of publications as a starting/continuation of evaluating sources

• dr. peter's publications that deal with similar subjects are different due to the function of different publications

• David Roberts, temple of Dendur, Nubia, in Egypt and Nubia, vol 2, plate 20

  • what kinds of messages are coming through from this image?

  • consider the landscape, how temple interacts with landscapes, what does it prioritize? - Meredith

  • consider the saturation of color or lack-thereof and the historical significance of culture - Hammad

  • consider the framing of the temple, plen air style, does it negate the original function of temple? -Lynn

  • consider the fashion- Jalen and Lynn

    • consider the traditions of style- Hammad

  • consider the scale- Connor

  • consider why its painted head on instead of 3/4 view, does it properly show the depth? -Lynn

Academic Realism: can be super duper charged

Dr. Peters= this can be totally misleading because orientalism skews everything, down to the floor slabs

• places these artifacts as completly out of this world

• "exotic" "foreign"

• frames the monument

Paradise Interrupted, a poetic weaving of the Western myth of the Garden of Eden

• also used as an event space, is that a part of Dendur history? do New Yorkers have a claim to this space?

• VR = Arabic voices have to be brought to the fore

  • they traveled and wrote their own histories but that has not been preserved in wide... white scholarship

Reevaluating Social Histories= first couples pages have good background information

• originally egyptologist didn't consider the value of contemporary perspectives when studying this field

• new direction= how we understand the uses of preservations

• appropriation!! buzzword baby but hear me out theres three definitions specific to ancient egypt being brought into contemporary art

  • political

  • frequency sans power struggles

  • use of older artworks to recontextualize them

Class Discussion: (What does preservation mean to you?)

Connor: spirit of objects, over time this spirit is 'degraded' so preservation restores that life the best way it can, continue learning from the history of humanity as a whole

degraded= forgotten, mistreated, mishandles ex. king tuts mask

ex. pompeii= excavaded areas areate

Hannah: degregation of spirit is fair when thinking beyond the object

you lose the spirit if the culture is not respected enough to be maintained ex. narratives of slaves by the salves

preservation has to be seen as a preservation of culture and the culture determines what is preserves

Meredith: culture vs. factuality preserved through either oral histories or objects

going back to "spirit" of the object= culture is more of the spirit rather than the 'factuality' of the event which is why its important to know who is recording these experiences (aka tangible effects)

Hannah: so a narrative can be altered? (agrees!) theres an alteration based on whos in charge of it no matter what

if you take away the context, is it important to preserve it? does it then just turn into a rock?

Hammad: there should be a speration in this circumstance from the artifact and what people think about it because what people think about it displays how human beings approach certain things as a cautionary tale

Lynn: a lot of art is just made for the sake of creation, ex, cave paintings are valuable regardless of the associated functions they are super cool and worthy of research due to the importance of the human experience as a whole

ex. grafitti on Pompeii they are funny in jokes that we can all laugh at

-understand the need for culture studied culture artifacts

-understand the need for

Meredith: traditionally thought of was worthy of preservation is what western whiteness considers art but casual things that capture human experience goes away from art and more into archives

Emma: traditional knowledge that doesn't fit in archives

Hammad: the way they engage with It is preservation

secondary sources are still valuable

Lynn: the only way to describe forms of art is to make art based on art you know when someone understands and GETS it

Jalen: going off traditional dance, can understand the human spirit, a story written on paper can be completly different than the human nature aspect

archives: humanness gets lost with formality and language!! language!! its important to try, to take the time and learn

Dr. Peter's buzz words:

culture

ethnicity

monoliths: how culture tends to be conceptualized and categorized

original

authenticity

languages: spoken sum, archives, translations sometimes cannot happen

• western privileges written documentary

  
  

  
  

voices= one voice is never enough

• culture as well as whatever we are preserving has to be from a culture, yes, but think about what culture means to us

• consider ethnicity

• theres a lot ofv sections of identity

• think ya'll are talking about a construct brought to the fore to explain colonialzation and domination of others

  • modern nation state: culture is defined by the ground you are from

  • ex. egyptians: one small part of a greater story

    
    

• efficient expert view of two resources, but understand big picture of weekly lessons = big picture is what we will be reflecting on

authenticity!

accuracy!

"realness"

• Ancient Near East BOO (colonial history, oriented as east from a continent they aren't a part of)

• Ancient Western Asia YAY (recognizes what continent these civilizations are associated with)

how preservation relates to Aida=

Hammad: good start to people who dont know ancient egypt because it was very simplified, would have loved it to be in Egyptian

"fetization of Egypt"

Lynn: grounded Egypt in persieved perceptions of Egypt but the relationship was more exemplified

Now it is a new production, by new director

Intent of Opera when it was made

Connor: Ship of Thessesus= trying to get at the fact that the production was a means of capturing the fantasy of ancient egypt rather than being truthful

-opera commissioned by Egyptian ruler

Hammad: ^two years before the ruler came into power, political motives

Dr.: line of rulers was the same though, changed name not family line, not until 1952 Egypt was actually independent

orientalism with modern Egyptians= continuation of this dialogue puts Egyptians in the role of the "other" when Egyptians were participating in the choices being made

• modern Egyptians own Orientalism art

• not super happy with American's and how they frame this discussion

---------------background materials

Iraqi Jewish Contemporary Cultural Heritage Artist

• Cultural Heritage that is in danger due to war and the whole oil grab

• Started with Americans and then became the Islamic state over the course of 10-15 years

• preservation/conservation/ restoration

• Artist searches for the information from lost things

• called 'reappearances' or 'ghosts' , not restoration because those artifacts are destroyed or plundered

• very political with what he does, takes activist standpoint

• art about community involvement

• GREAT example of this movement of interventions by contemporary artists 'reclaiming' the past- specifically if their heritage (buzzword) or culture (bingo) at the heart of the shifting conversation of preservation of tangible objects

• Resurrection buzz word baby

• idea that the new space based on old space is a part of the maneuvering of power= who gets to choose, who gets to decide?

• Using familiar materials to take up 3d space as a metaphor= Hanging Gardens of Babylon

--------------discussion materials

• use for Thursday class, practicing the worksheets in groups- not graded until week four discussion materials

• options for weekly assignments

• 1 page reaction (summary)

• 2 page response (reflective essay)

  Individual project:class portfolio= name of document if you are confused on what needs to be turned in weekly

LINK TO WEEKLY CHECKLIST

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1geQTcKBDjGyn29m0cvRPjFbYGpJvVVI_oh1PIOKBNSw/edit?tab=t.0

examples of glossary available if necessary, do NOT GOOGLE, do NOT USE AI OVERVIEW

same project can have a variety of article forms depending on variables:

who is printing the journal, or the authority in which the articles are presented within

peer review(blind(scholarly) /double blind(super scholarly)/ author named(contested)) vs. editor reviewed

amount of freedom given to authors determined by journal- review your sources!!!!

level of collaboration, intention of article

the discipline in which the journal is interested In

evolution of restorative techniques

*in one big discipline theres multiple sub disciplines that have differing levels of agency, authority, framing, handling

--------------------

important to have glossary entry from practice, but just get a vibe for filling out the worksheet

point= efficiency, comprehension, elicit deeper thinking, don't read every word

feelings? beliefs? leave them at the door with the worksheet! bring those beautiful ideas to class after collecting all of the data.

main arguments made in the first two pages, and concluded in the last, the information in the body supports these through details

appropriation defined in a very interesting way

Quote by Pablo Picasso to underline the relevance of ancient art to the modern world

Writing Resources google drive folder- check it for WEEKLY CONVERSATION reflective and responsive writing

We began by going over what exactly we are doing today in class and why.

"Everyone is working in a way that works best for them"

Goal is to find out how people work to pair them with people with similar work methods.

I think Mars in in retrograde.

WHAT

Groups are meant to help, not for a grade directly. Today we are in practice groups but later we will be in our formal groups.

Group 1, Brown

Group 2 Chalabi and Moffitt

Group 3 Rakowitz

Group 4 Moffit and Snow

We are practicing filling out a worksheet and learning how to fill them out. We are getting an idea on the process so we are prepared. Remember to find 2 words that we maybe didn't understand and find out what they mean (if they are neat they might end up on the glossary).

I can not stress enough that this is practice.

No more than about 30 mins per worksheet (ideally)

Term words will ideally be both words that we are not familiar with as well as words we assume are important. These words will hopefully be helpful to the rest of the class.

Mars will be in retrograde until February 23rd.

We added a word to the class glossary to demonstrate how it is done, if you do not have access please let Dr. Peters know.

The purpose of the worksheet is to be focused on the resource and not on personal experience. It is important to have a full formed idea of the article when you are finished reading it before you merge it with your personal experiences.

The Invisible Enemy & Parasite.

Use the objective mind before the subjective mind. Work in steps.

Reappearances in Michael Rakowitz's work and the ghosts carried that can't be made with a 3D printer.

Reading multiple articles back to back helps them blend together

There is a separation between contemporary and ancient art. Contemporary art is a living version of Ancient art

Some artists are using elements of Ancient art with interest on how the public views that separation.

There are varying opinions and thoughts on the worksheets and who finds them helpful.

"To me there is no past or future in art..."

Fluidity of time and choices made overtime for preservation is all very relevant.

Large articles can have just a few pages of actual content, with the rest just being evidence, which is great because it is evidence; however, not exactly the greatest for the sake of note taking.

Appropriation and its many definition as well as fetishization have been added to the glossary

We went over the writing recourses.

The writings/summaries are a culmination of what we did during the week, with a larger project at the end of the semester that is a culmination of the culminations of what we did over many weeks.

We ended by filling out the work ethic surveys so we can be sorted into our groups.

Reflection - refers to reflecting on our experiences we should consider the who, what, when, where, why, and how those experiences are meaningful to us.

Ex:

1. Who - the Class

2. What - has done reflection writing

3. Where -

4. Why - its an assignment in the class

5. When - ever, as of yet

6. How -

Why is Reflection Important?

It allows us to document our experiences and to make meaning out of them. It allows us to connect years of learning points; it allows us to excel in career readiness. It also allows us to gain perspective on a topic or discussion in class or in our lives to think through potential significance.

The 3 R's:

Retell - Relate - Reflect

Another topic of discussion was writing a Reflective essay 2 pages double space talking about the class discussions.

Then we talked about what resources we chose for the Field Guides.

The Key topics of discussion were

Restoration

• Make an object look better and is tied to aesthetics (Aesthetic Surgery)

Conservation-

• Identification of the physical properties, practices and research on how to treat damaged or prevent it or treating it.

Metaphysical vs Physical

not like a research paper, not going to be citing articles like MLA style but give attribution to where dieas are coming from, including peers. for article the last name and page number will do.

you will use "I" but it isn't stream of consiousnessness.

The point is to explore ideas on the themes and quotes that stand out

“the phenomenon in which new and unfamiliar writing tasks are approached through the application, remixing or integration of previous knowledge, skills, strategies, and dispositions.” (Purdue)

MORE DETAILS BETTER PLAY CLUE

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CLASS DISCUSSION

identify main points and questions first, then we can start to add our own feelings to it, personal feelings are not what we are looking for in this context

DISCUSSION OF SIGNIFICANCE

5 minute discussion on how we chose our readings

——Discussion:

∎Richardson, A. and A. Bracker. 2009. “Introduction.” In Conservation. Edited by Alison Richardson and Alison Bracker, xiv-xviii. Oxford: Taylor & Francis

• easily digestable

+ Cane, S. 2009. “Why Do We Conserve? Developing Understanding of Conservation as a Cultural Construct.” In Conservation. Edited by Alison Richmond and Alison Bracker, 163-176. Oxford: Taylor & Francis.

Dr: purpose: how did we get where we got, try to not critique just find the purpose, that comes later, we are doing the opposite of that

∎Clavir, M. 2002. “The Historical Development of Conservation and Its Values.” In Preserving What is Valued: Museums, Conservation, and First Nations, 3-25. Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press.

restoration vs. conservation: totally different things, pointed out differences rather than similarities

conservation: science! chemicals!

restoration: miriam references in the sense of restoration as a profession or like recreating a form of art not really touching the art but adapting it to mimic what was there before, not down to the nitty gritty like conservation

entire first page is what conservation and how it can be used, shows the multiplicity

Hammad: realy liked that Mirim started this way, set the context well, many articles assume preconsieved notions but ms. girly really deconstructed

∎Clavir, M. 2002. “Conservation Values and Ethics.” In Preserving What is Valued: Museums, Conservation, and First Nations, 26-66. Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press.

Lyn: first mention of ethnographic conservators, conservators were taught specifically by their history, what it means to have conservators that are scientific as awell as active members of the culture being conserved= scientists have a different mindset= wants to encourage cultures to go into the restorative field to write their own history with science backing them up = (sometimes the science doesn't add up! started conversation! Meredith: easier said than done! not saying they dont have a place, but they shouldn't have to do that in order for their history to be preserved well, the way that Western world has made it scientific and the end all be all to art handling imperialist driven, UNESCO reading= some cultures not Western have never thought to conserve them to Western standards because people are still living and occupying these spaces when WEstern standards make them cold and steril)

Lyn: why after these things are restored theyre put in a museum? can cultures be taught conservation techniques and then use them going forward. restoration and conservation are both super important and that information and technologies should be open sourced and not "gatekept" by institutions.

∎Meskell, Lynn. 2018. “Conservation.” In A Future in Ruins: UNESCO: World Heritage and the Dream of Peace, 90-117. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

---

Jalen: opened up all reading blocks, skimmed them, chose the same author because the format was awesome to outline notes, showed where the themes were going, easier to grasp the main idea

Meredith: Enjoyed the narrative structure, less purely historical, interesting to read, understanding how people in this field are like (only did first chapter of Clavir)

Lyn: the reiterations got redundant, the points got lost in the sauce, needed to back and really re-read

pay attention to authors, where the formatting is coming from, why are they edited as such

Connor: conservation has a social aspect to it, informed by the society that the conservation Is happening in, "conservationist are always writing, informing the interpretation" in charge of how works should be interpreted

Restoration vs. Conservation= conservation develops out of restoration/ brings up ideas of authenticity and originality

restoration: idea of changing the physicalness of an object to "repair" it or make it "better" fixing holes, re painting, making multiple surfaces look unified

aesthetics

conservation: "web of cons" (thanks Jalen) identification of physical properties and research how to treat damage or prevent it and then treating it

physicality of something

physicality, what is important, what is valued, the metaphyscial aspects

Last classes talking points

• Science (western modern science), control and imperialism

• Truth, the "good"

Western traditions and its structures of thought.

• Indigenous representation in the creation of museum narratives

  --> is this possible within existing structures?

Restoration Vs. Conservation

Aesthetic Vs. Prevention of damage(through science)

Should everything be conserved?

• Land art, which is made to be integrated into the land after a while.

• Milo: Art by intention vs. art by appropriation

ART?

Art doesn't have an actual definition

• individually valuable

• Culture and heritage are also words without a common definition.

  
  

  Separation

• in all cases there is a decision that the art is important and should be conserved

• Value of art

UNESCO

Meredith gave a quick explanation of the article

UNESCO is a very important organization to the art world

Surrounded by a lot of discourse about their ethics, it used to be perceived as having "good" practices.

• Abby: UNESCO preferred conserving places that provide capital rather than culture.

Gabrielle: Eurocentric

How UNESCO only preserves the monuments, when they need to be also taking into account the living histories.

Meredith:

Provided a question about how UNESCO can become less bias

Separating itself from its operation

Power Structures

There should be an authority that can decide how to conserve.

Hannah:

The monument will eventually turn into tourist traps, separate the knowledge gained from the conservation, and the knowledge should be controlled ie. it should be up to the sites who would be allowed to experience the monument.

Jaylen:

Where is the line, you need to create an attraction to gain the money to conserve the monument.

Cherokee tourist attractions, the difference in certain monuments that decides when it shown to the public and that is the location.

Access

Being selective about what's in the public eye.

Abby:

Could that erase parts of the culture

Meredith:

Lascaux caves, how they preserved the actual cave by creating a replica.

"real" and "replica"

Physicality (and also the visit)

significance

Hannah:

Placement of the replica monument

Conner:

Scrovegni Chapel

and the conservation there by controlling who can walk in and how many people

Review:

How do you represent all different peoples Ideas

Preserving things away from capitalism

Replicas, and knowledge being open to the public.

Chapter 2: Conservation Values and Ethics

Gabby:

overview -->

Consider the work first before the conservation

Milo:

How to avoid favoritism despite the implicate bias from the person who chose the thing to be conserved

The Object

The Work

It's seen as more important than anything else

Abby:

Does the object have value because of what its heard, then the animal is an important experience of the chair

Hannah:

How did the animal get in?

What kind of squirrel is it?

Is he squirrel more important than the chair?

Meredith:

There can be other things that makes the chair more important, that doesn't effect the job of the conservator.

Carin:

The object itself is not much of anything, but because of its history its preserved.

Its just an object it has nothing but the experience.

Being in the museum effects the importance of the item.

The curator chooses if an item goes in the museum.

Objects actually have their own agency, the objects themselves have meaning without someone putting it on them

• Some objects don't need a viewer

science, control + imperialism.

truth, the good.

Western modern science specifically.

The imperial colonial structure of though.

encouraging people to get into scientific fields, ethnic voices, and cultural inclusion, native people working working in institutions

Restorations: precursor to conservation, making it look pretty or whole again

Conservation: identification and research on physical properties to find out how to search damage or prevent it, through the use of western modern science.

ethics of assigning cultural value using a 'western' centric perspective.

Continuation of discussion of reading:

what should be preserved, restored, and/or conserved?

land art is made to degrade over time.

art by intention vs. art by appropriation, who decides what is art, some items considered art were items made for everyday use.

the label art is defined as narrowly or as widely as necessary. any medium and media. but the definition was created by western academia.

does the value of a site or items history out weigh the rights of a culture to that place or object. unesco wants people to leave sites to preserve sites. conservation is not just the science of the west.

definition of UNESCO on smart history link as well as other organizations definitions and links.

all of the monuments that started UNESCO's heritage sites are in urban area.

commercialization of culture.

Gabrelle word - Eurocentric.

UNESCO only saves monuments, needs to also focus on living histories and current sites.

what ways can UNESCO change the way it operates without changing the power of assembly its based on? is there any way for UNESCO to become less bias.

how do you come up with different options to demonstrate the bias and the change needed.

The focus of economic gain of the countries needs to be addressed.

should the countries be in power of theses sites and monuments, if the countries cannot afford to maintain these sites what happens to them.

if in order to maintain these sites these countries need to monetize these sites to fund the preservation or conservation, where is the line?

jay - example of Cherokee, his own heritage, the tourism of the sites.

access, the solution to the conservation of know be that certain sections be walled of and kept away from the public to be well kept.

you don't always have to show the whole thing, to make the money. people care more about the shape of it. pick parts that people want to see the most.

replicas where you can experience the monument or site. real verses replica.

significance of experience. if you can't tell the difference. replica cave in France, not the same as pretending you are a caveman. what is real or authentic, the difference between cave drawing.

church in airlock to stabilize paint.

how do you present an entire culture in a few voices.

should countries be responsible for their own sites.

are replicas as good as the real thing?

next article Clavir 2:

Gabby summarizes article.

milo asks if art itself has value, how to avoid favoritism.

the conservator does not value or chose the work/object, they are assigned it.

how to avoid bias.

someone chooses a work, if it degrades then the conservator is assigned to maintain it.

if the chair is valued because of what it's heard then the animal is part of the experience of the chair.

squirrel in chair, what kind of squirrel, how did it get there?

why is the chair important, why should it be saved, does the squirrel take precedence, just do it. the conservators job it not to question the value or meaning of the work. the object it's self isn't anything, meaning is derived from context and history, cannon ball.

preview net week:

where do objects get meaning. when objects/works get placed in museums they are automatically made important.

to objects have their own agency, do they have meaning as there own.

Tues Feb 11 + Thurs Feb 13

Topics and tasks: the Sistine Chapel and the Vatican, the Pergamon Museum and Berlin’s Museuminsel

*****make sure to write down your cool thoughts! even if we don't get to them, you'll use them in your reflection**** goal: sustained convo

general overview feedback of Week 4 work:

• think about worksheets as a preparation tool to bring you into the week

• class discussion is most important: robust convo that is open to everyoe

• reflection: needs to be clear whether it is a REACTION or a RESPONSE

• glossary entries: put your name on the glossary entries/ make sure these entries are significantly differant from eachoter

  • make sure definitions are thorough and meaningful to this class

Check out the syllabus for updates!

• Breakout room

summarize main points of the case study

share this information with the rest of the class on Thurs.

The idea of this preparation is to get to a state of the topic that can generate a discussion in which anyone can participate, and we can identify where the information is coming from.

Groups:

Sistine Chapel Group

∎The Sistine Chapel Restoration [DOC 1994] (50 min video)

∎Glueck, G. 1987. “Halt Urged in Work on Sistine and ‘Last Supper.’” NYTimes March 6, 1987 + Arguimbau, P.L. 2006. “Michelangelo’s Cleaned Off Sistine Chapel.” Personal blog, archived. 

∎Hoeniger, C. 2009. “The Development of Principles in Paintings Conservation: Case Studies from the Restoration of Raphael’s Art.” In Conservation. Edited by Alison Richmond and Alison Bracker, 100-112. Oxford: Taylor & Francis.

Pergamon Museum Group

∎Loeseke, A. 2018. “Transhistoricism: Using the Past to Critique the Present.” In: The Contemporary Museum: Shaping Museums for the Global Now. Edited by S. Knell, 142-150. London: Routledge.

∎Bilsel, C. 2012. “Architecture in the Museum: Monuments for a Mass Spectacle.” In Antiquity on Display: Regimes of the Authentic in Berlin's Pergamon Museum, 189-214. Oxford: Oxford University Press + Bilsel, C. 2005. “On the Modern Cult of Authenticity: Prolegomena to a Study of Berlin’s Pergamon Museum.” In Repenser les limites: l’architecture à travers l’espace, le temps et les disciplines. Edited by Alice Thomine-Berrada and Barry Bergdol, 1-5. Paris: Publications de l’Institut national d’histoire de l’art.

Changing Ideas Group

∎Hulst, T. 2017. “The Value of Art.” In A History of the Western Art Market: A Sourcebook of Writings on Artists, Dealers, and Markets, 32-56. Oakland: University of California Press.

∎Clifford, H. 2009. “The Problem of Patina: Thoughts on Changing Attitudes to Old and New Things.” In Conservation. Edited by Alison Richmond and Alison Bracker, 125-128. Oxford: Taylor & Francis.

Sistine Chapel Group

Gabby(main points):

• video was really in favor of the restoration but a lot of the article seemed agaisnt it, from video the "work spoke for itself" against critics. on the other side, the restoration went too far, and critics worried about the damage done

  • restoration: adding to to think of what it looked like originally, painted on top and cleaned it

  • what happened in the sistine chapel

  • did a lot of mapping out,

• Jalen: I found it really interesting how in the documentary they were super positive towards the restoration. they showed how careful they were, even down to the fact that they took tiny samples of the pigment to match the same minerals in their paint NO LEAD BC IT DETERIORATED WTF they also compared it to how he must have felt painting the painting s

• Meredith: when I imagine restoration vs. conservation I see how restoration gets a bad rep, but Its interesting that each painter tried to get in the brain of the painters in their time= brings the signifacnce of the story into the present , still has value to so many people today, even if we value that patina it might bar people from the future to experience this awesome piece of art to the degree that we have/ doesn't segregate the artist from the art

• Connor: cool to see how they dated, and saw the division of paint and kept the paint and loincloths from the 15 hundreds and got rid of any other artists loincloths

• dr. peters: one of the big controversies was that Michelangelo painted with a very muted pallet, then realizing that it was just 100 years of smoke and insence, and nobody believed that that the colors used were original- still a topic of discussion. what do you think about that? lets talk about the general viewer! reception studies! this links all that together!

• Hammad: my perspective is that yea, duh clean it! you gotta see what it truly looked like! people just got sued to those colors, and assuming that original intent shows the preconsived notions the audience has about the piece. pro clean that ish, it shows what it looks like originally. I think the artist intention should be more critically studied, even if we can't embody it in the modern world- don't project our viewpoints.

• Dr. Peters: think of how many audiences there were!

Pergamon Museum Group

Meredith (main points):

• Pergamon is a museum in Berlin described as an ancient architecture museum, at the begining of the first article it shows how the facade was designed, lots of arguments but landed on neoclassical. we talked a lot about how neo classical studies is tied to imperial powers and how colonialism is perpetuated thorugh design. on the inside they reconstructed arhitecture from colonial providences = great altar of Pergamon og in Turkey but it remains in fragments in Pergamon and they took those pieces and created a new construction inside for the German people to experience the awe of the architectural facade- not building itself just the altar- the intention is not to recreate the work but to recreate the feeling ancient people had when they first saw/ controversial about how the pieces were put together along with added fragments to make a new construction/ talked about how imperialism is perpetuated when put in a western context- creates the narrative of what Germany wanted to show instead of the og context

• Dr. Peter: also the Ishtar Gate!

• Hannah: one of the big things discussed in the papers was the authority of museums to tell history and alter history! a lot of people "the public" go to museums and think of them as unbiased institutions but typically they are ran by higher powers, in this instance the government. it also talked about the Altes museum and a lot of issues around the building and designs, right around the WWII when the power transitioned- lots of fighting about the facades and how they should be implimented. through the implementation of these designs these institutions ignore that they facilitated a certain regime and propoganda. My question is: Are museums neutral in presenting history?

• Jalen: I think in an ideal world they should be unbiased, but thats just not how it happens because at the end of the day it is a business. from an education standpoint it is to push a narrative. I dont enjoy when museums are political in nature. they shouldnt push a narrative, they mostly just show one perspective and not other facets of it. but its what sells

• Milo: thinking of museums as a business- I don't think that a neutral museum would last long because they rely on funding and funding would be pulled if the doners weren't pleased. they wouldn't continue running

• Meredith: no chance of no bias. its always operated as a power structure, making it more community and attempting to be neutral is a position in and of itself- museums are by their very nature fetishizing, that comes with the territory it wouldn't be a museum if it didn't fetishize. they can totally improve, but I don't think neutrality is something to strive for. recognize the power you, recognize you can't relinquish that, and use that power for good rather than pursuing an alternative agenda

• Hammad: wanted to add a response to the fact that many assume museums are unbiased= lots of people even within the field have different ideas of how to do museums ICOM has struggled with defining what is a museum. even experts cant come to terms with what a museum is or how they study things. all a matter of framing and how something is looked at. epistemological argument- form of looking at how we derive knowledge from something

• Gabrielle: I don't think museums can be neutral- ex. Turchin with the confederate thing- the plaque tried to mitigate the responsibility of the Turchin but having the plaque and the exhibit in general showed a position of the Turchin

• Meredith: So true Gabrielle!

• Dr. Peters: many people group all museums into one umbrella term, but being a professional in museums studies= definition debate shows that something good is happening in the field

  • consider if it is possible to not be political? consider if you can be unbiased? consider if you can ever be neutral? ITS ALL ABOUT PEOPLE! controlled or not controlled, the "public" has a role in this. keep this in mind, open. we can't be unpolitical or unbiased= so use it for good.

Changing Ideas Group

Abby(main points)

• talked about patina vs. fashion

  • patina is the old system of objects/ ancestral inheritance

  • fashion= consumer based/ how people will buy new objects

• patina as a tarnish on an item and used as the story of an object/ what its been through

• conservators should keep that patina or restore it to its original

• differing values of each

• In conservation should objects be cleaned or preserve that original object?

  • Connor: depends on whats happening, if the patina is actively destroying the item then yea totally get rid of it. But if it is inconsiquential that should be optional. Overall conservation shouldn't be a optional

  • Lynn: we should prioritize the story of the object more than the actual object, the wear and tear is more interesting than the actual object. Like some of the statues are scrubbed and that tells how recent history interacts with ancient history. the decision to restore and keep the paint away is fair

  • Abby: I can see both sides. If we are looking at these art works as a study of the culture then I can see that you should take off the tarnish because it didnt happen in our lifetimes

  • Connor: The sistene chapel they took off residue because there was a historical precedent for artists to edit the painting to their liking, didnt get rid of dirt before paining it, altered the original vision of the painting ex. the Black person was painted over and removed which removed the original story

  • Hannah: Good points, topic of conservation vs. restoration- if theres something about the artwork that is causing issue with integrity, to conserve you gotta remove. to restore is to change or alter the visual to try and get to the original piece which will always be filled with our biases, we can only guess what it was. conservation is super important for some objects, some objects are not meant to be saved. important distinction that some things are meant to deteriorate

    • ex. sculptures from greece or rome= if something was eroding the statue vs. placing new limbs on It and placing the color back on it

lyn: felt that the depleation of the port was bad because it was an original but understandable

jalen: heritage and memory are inherently political, don't want the rep of having a slave trade = censorship

cardin: you can't forget history, its too late own it

milo: I dont agree with erasure, but i agree with turning land into something worthwhile, purely theoretical

lynn: a very big need would be elicted, even if changed it has to be ack

meredith: reclaiming/ different with port

hammad: I saw the decolonial india, they are inherited as sites to give legitamacy to new ruling authority

ethnicity

meredith: disstalgia/metanarrative = not being able to return to place or origin

how nubians relate to the state they are in

role of this connection in displaced communities, power they get from this

stories are picked for whatever reason! what reasons!

Emma: I saw community all around boone and when I went back home they all worried about fema!

hannah: there was no community during the hurricane. the neighbors were going about their business, people in our town did not help eachother. there was waiting list for tree services. weird to hear stories like emma said, because there was nothing and I literally grew up here.

milo: I had the opposite experience in boone. everyone was passing out food, seeing if people needed help. when we drove around at every corner there was aid. that narrative sticks

ideas of power, ideas of who write the narrative, ideas of witnessing and internalize,

hammad: I don't identify with appalachian culture, but I do live here and when I see boone I feel guilty because I have a way out and a lot of people dont. background and experience grounds the story they tell. lots of privilege here, surrounding areas aren't as much. we like to think theres a shared experience across WNC its really not

hannah: certainly! so many differences in each person and even how they pick each event, geographically the experience can change even in just a couple miles.

older sister lived in asheville, they are still making free meals for people

because we lived in different places, we approached the situation differently

preservation, physicality,

cardin: why woulnd't someone feel pride from seeing their cultural artifacts? removed from context it is still theirs

is the safety worth it?

jalen: at least my cultural artifacts are safe, it might not be right but at the very least its safe, but also visible and present.

shared experience=same?

dr. peters= a lot of artifacts are in deep storage...

jalen: at least if theres records of them that are widely available to the public, private collections are wack

safety! public view! records visible?!

our current understanding of art is art that is made to be sold but the other historic artifacts are put into the market

ideas of public, history, privatization

hammad: this depends on a personal connection a person has, and what constitutes as safe. (response cardins og question) personally hate colonial rule, but do appreciate that the taj mahal was protected!

continuity!!!!!! moorish architecture, hagia sofia= save use through continuity

mobility of objects

our misperceptions!

Week 7: Destruction ≠ preservation?

Tues Feb 25 + Thurs Feb 27 [Thurs class out at 5:55pm to get to Sanford 102 for Graphic Design candidate presentation - extra credit]

Topics and tasks: damnatio memoriae, spolia, iconoclasm with the Bamiyan Buddhas, Ai Weiwei, and Shahzia Sikander 

Groups submit contracts, propose their case study and a week to lead

to discuss: syncretism

——Discussion:

∎Smarthistory – Byzantine Iconoclasm and the Triumph of Orthodoxy

• good summary of the whole premise associated here

∎Shahzia Sikander: Havah...to breathe, air, life — Madison Square Park Conservancy + Porterfield, Carlie. 2024. “Shahzia Sikander says she will not fix statue that was

beheaded in Houston.” The Art Newspaper Aug 1, 2024. 

Abby: this artist made Witness and Now= one has hoop skirt one doesnt, giant women, lots of symbolism about women in power and in judicial system

∎Hahn, H.P. 2004. “Global Goods and the Process of Appropriation.” In Between Resistance and Expansion: Dimensions of Local Vitality in Africa. Edited by P. Propst and G. Spittler, 213-231. Muenster: Lit Verlag.

• talks about steps, and different culture than we were used to

• anthropological framework, trying to get away from knee jerk reaction to the word appropriation, or come up with a different term

• informs Versluys

Cardin: Material appropriation, objectification, incorporation, transformation= don't have to go in this order, but do have to all be present!!! partial appropriation also exists

this talks about West Africa, and three specific places within it ex. bicycle in

different states of being recognized

when certain things are sold on a global market, villages get influx of sports wear in West Africa

same process, outside of "imperial" forces of appropriation

the idea is that objects become appropriated into local thought by the people that are using them

Milo: objects and ideas have to be integrated into everyday society, so the object is redefined ex. if only men can ride bikes then the meaning behind the object is altered and marketed to men

• the local minds create the context, shows a directionality to the process of appropriation

• people have agency within appropriation

• rites of passage for objects to be fully appropriated, often dictated by the local group

• 
  

∎Sassu, A. 2025. “Sassu on de Jong and Versluys, Reading Greek and Hellenistic-Roman Spolia: Objects, Appropriation and Cultural Change.” BMCR 2025.01.35

+ Versluys, M.J. 2023. “Triumphus and the Taming of Objects: Spoliation and the Process of Appropriation in Late Republican Rome.” In Reading Greek and Hellenistic-Roman Spolia: Objects, Appropriation and Cultural Change. Edited by Irene de Jong and M.J. Versluys, 27-45. Leiden; Boston: Brill.

• interesting because it shows a lot of perspectives, goes well with Hahn reading

Connor: question, is appropriation a necessary evil in producing cultural innovation?

Lynn: powerful governments can mitigate taking ownership of the Other cultural innovation, talking in scope of countries- theres better ways for a nation to gain innovative status

so yes, but no way for the culture of the Other to retain their intellectual data

Hannah: I would respond that this is defining whether appropriation is the best definition for the process that occurs. in the definitions we have been using, its been focused on taking an object and recreating an object. here, now it is the conquering and stealing of the Other cultures object- which also steals their traditions and practices. not a lot of credit, just a lot of consumption. good point about requiring a holistic defintion

Dr. Peters: the Roman-Egypt is epitome of Self-Other relationship. romans super concious in showing how indebted they are. a culture known for bricolage. very imperialistic and violent appropriation is universal. are we only able to see apparition as an evil?

xoxo

Started by making sticky notes describing one of the readings we did.

Conner

Is appropriation a necessary evil in regards to the development or innovation of a society and or cultures?

Lyn

There is not a way for the culture that is appropriating to give credit to the culture that they are appropriating but there is a better way to absorb the development without causing harm to the culture.

Hannah

There is a problem with the definition of appropriation and how that term is used, that the term cannot be used in all instances, specifically with the Greek and Rome.

Is the term wrong

is there no way to not appropriate because of human nature.

Emma

Syncretism?

context based or process based?

Hahn Peters

Appropriation has 4 steps

1. Material appropriation

2. Incorporation

3. Objectification

4. Transformation

It can be partial, but it needs all four to be a full appropriation.

Sport shirts that are coveted in some villages, they become appropriated into local thought by the people buying the shirts.

Milo

The object has to be marketed in a certain way, it has to be changed from its original meaning to be assimilated specifically in the local minds of the people.

Ex. men only riding bikes

Using it in your own context is appropriation

Not a simple automatic process!

Shahzia Sikander

Two statues of women connected to a court house that represent women in power, and someone beheaded the statue with

Meredith

The two different points of Sikander believing it was destroyed because of female empowerment and because it was an Anti-Abortion group they were scared of the power of women because of their power of choice over their body.

"satanic" related to the power of women and the reproductive rights

Jay

The destruction of the statue being done by a man, and how that implications of it come across in the meaning created by the destruction.

Hannah

The decapitation added to the message of woman in power. How very few statues of women there are and how many show physical representations of the brunt of what women go through in society

Ex. like how bronze states of women often have their breast area polished because that's where most people touched.

(but not ALL bronze statues)

Destroying statues of rulers because of a dislike of their rule.

• groups of people defined by "cultural heritage" (complex) (categories never closed)

Gaby: discussed iconoclasm in byzantine empire, the back and forth nature to the discourse, gave 3 different examples of churches and how the icons changed

religion connected to politics so decisions in

"triumph of Orthodoxy"= exageration of events that happened

Meredith: mythologies? that downplays the significance of ancient people! they had valid significance! (emma made the distinction between objectivity and mythologies and that is a big claim to make, especially when thinking about the process of preservation, theres validity in the lived experiences)

connor: iconoclasts and iconophiles, the clash that happened over a period of time through phases, what was right and wrong through clashes with the persians and muslims as taking over territories

cardin: difference of denominations, big dispute that icons can become idols, I was raised iconoclastic, baptist,

dr. peters: so iconoclastic is still here today! was it all figures or only human figures

cardin: mary was cool to be depicted, but Jesus wasn't because he was divine

dr. peters: what is considered a symbol or a figure

the physical image itself was the thing of wroship rather than the figure symbolizing

not ethnic ties, ideologies to religion

apropriation has many context, sometimes innaporpriatly contextualized= her version is working with the local people

decolonialization is technically about giving things back, but also having the local people tell

long durae= everything in time has its own place

telling stories through time

everytime we isolate it we are doing something unnatural in the story

emma: can spoila be neutral?

dr. peters: normally seen as negatively but all spoila is is taking a object and putting it in a foreign context

difference in folk tales and mythologies and real practice religion or do we make myths

hammad: myth as a collective imagination

myths can exist at any point in time, not jsut the past= embellishment

conspiracy theories might be myths???

myths codified into books, folk tales more localized

connor: humans create stories we tell ourselves, like orally

stories become true for the teller, open up ideas of how they see the world

meredith: the idea of "good resources" for understanding another culture is very subjective, and you get into tricky territory by delineating what gets included and what doesn't

lynn: the idea of a myth / idk if another society can create a myth for an outside culture

does a myth have to be religious in nature?

ancient people:

huge blown u pidea of modernity= acctually the problem= these are the structures that marginalize and colonialize

artist intention vs. the myth that surrounds it= slide into the idea that myths are just ideas

cardin: you draw the line when a story is imposed on a group of people

jalen: ✊

hammad: religious and political and scientific multiplicity to beliefs and practices, one shared large pool of knowledge

abby: I get how myths were concocted around Shiraz sculpture bc it is freaky

emma: well said! a lot of times why myths don't have to be inherantly religious but often are because being a part of a religion dictates how you live your life and gives rise to alternative perspectives/

also the statue was in Texas, coming from Southern Baptist church, I get why the person felt called or emboldened to act on that

abby: totally reminds me of iconoclasts and how they don't mess with symbols. the dude who hurt the statue in Houston can be validated by his beliefs and I get that

milo: im curious if anyone knows how rams horns started being seen as satanic because they remind me of christian sacrifice and thats kinda what happened in Houston

additive! multiplicity!

Dr. Peters= Carnegie has a giant cast collection

Roman Replicas=

• not just copying for funzies, it was a method of making that is authentic

  Overview of Miranda Marvin: Cicero letters, a new interpretation, Cicero was looking for private decorations = meaning of the room associated with learning= decorations needed to reflect the ideas of the space they were displayed

• "mars, what as an advocate of peace can I do with that" baccai= what can my chill ass do with estatic frenzy

• mentalite has to match with the meaning of the room and the meaning of the stuff

• connotation as a character of the divine

Sexy Boys=

• article that offers a revision of the idea that the Romans were pure copiests

  • this idea doesn't have agency within it, yes colonialism but yes that explains all the players in the ancient world

• how we approach roman art and architecture is "wrong" because of our modern conotations of originality and authenticity

• scholars take the position of what was important to ancient Roman's, not us and our ideas of modernity

• cannot force this into our modern ideas when given the evidence, who are we to tell them theyre wrong because its unoriginal brother no

• Dr. Peters academic grandma

• denegrative copying isn't deadass, "romans didnt have reasons other than sucking greek dick" well no greeks were only one group of people

• if you actually think of copies as an addition to instead of "from" shows a multicultural understanding of the global world

• when you only take from elites you get 2% of the picture

• big field changer, rethinking the Roman's copies

• Germans are very detailed and like counting locks on sculptural heads of hari

• think of the social and religious reasoning= display! communicating something about your home! particular genre that relies on "Greek" precedents that are actually rome= Sexy Boys Genre (tm)

  • either mythical figures or gods, adonis, eros, not everyday people can be sexy boys its distinct

  • described in ways that aren't just about erotism, acknowledges many different types of sexualities in the Roman world

  • Roman military virile= not the only ideal form of beauty

  • location= in public spaces, different sexualities made visible and accepted, young boys and older men was super important in Roman culture, in Greece its like an expected role

  • not just homo and hetero sexuality= can't just say a copy

• Lamp Boys (tm) similar but they are lamp holders and made out of bronze

• whole thing is using familiar styles from = 5th century classical greek and then 100 years later hellenistic greek that's more expressive

Hadrian and Antinous

Digital Emersive Replications:

Connor: virtual reconstruction preserves the space itself

Cardin: sensitive areas not able to be accessed, digital reconstruction is more respectful, for the pyramid of Giza you cant access that in person, but you can access it in digital reality

Educational Value of reconstructing a rich dudes house

Jalen: finances for this, reoccuring themses with resources being allocated towards these reconstructions,

like high scale reconstructions in video games

what exactly is stopping us from collaborating better with virtual reconstruction that can allow a better rendition? like collab between hollywood and scholar

Lynn: it mentioned the idea of the original and if recreations push towards a perfect replica it defeats the purpose of the replica, ex. replicas used as placement and not actually inhabiting the space like the scans and murals in these spaces, as for sacred spaces if they should be scanned= thats up to the homies that still practice hellenistic religious traditions, don't encroach on sacred spaces

Connor: there was a thing with the Hagia Sophia where the place was a museum then a mosque by government and they are restricting access into this sacred space that aren't muslim

Lynn: yea do that restricting space is super valid

Hannah: I agree with that! the cultural significance is enough grounds to restrict, even if they aren't spaces in use like tombs they were never suppose to be opened back up, place for the resting of the dead don't disturb that

dominant religion is christianity now, can you imagine digging up grandma's jewels she was buried with? why digital restoration is awesome, there is a cultural boundary

Milo: 86 pages, I read it all bitches.

so it was in three sections, it talked baout how monuments and their representations constrantly changing, focused on architecture, plaster casts have been used for like ever so for architecture is rooted to the time and space in which it was created, so casting and transfering these elements was conventional

different meanings were given to these casts, some seen as more important bc newer and fresher looking

architecture museums that the casts put in, idea of an "ideal" museum with to scale, chronological histories of architecture but due to mechanics museums couldn't always do that

in america they wanted white perfect complete casts and gave them more meaning

who decides who decides the value system?

the MET made a "VIP" cast system being so fkn exact..... that was the claim.....

moved into talking about photography around pg 50 or 60 through use of photography they could get the items in the round and advance the cast creation system

voice artifacts can give to histories

is it accurate because the values have changed so much.

Arch of Palmyra= destroyed by ISIS

parthenon marble debate they might be casts

longstanding project about plaster casts later gets into different technologies

Hannah Pope: popehl@appstate.edu

• project specific questions, but also just any questions about tech spaces

3D Design= scholarly pursuit

ethics/ morality

how computers are controlled by humans, algorithm defray human decisions, emerging technologies within the discipline

3d printer: time consuming barrier, size of print bed

2 ways to print: FDM printer (most common) and Resin Printing (stupid expensive, icky, super precise print, best for small detailed and durable items)

getting a 3d model

• 3d scanning=

• photogrammetry= lots of photos taken and compiled, several angles, more pictures better model, softwares will do this automatically

• laser scanning= like lidar scanning

  used frequently by museums and special collections in library

facts embedded into 3d scans at british museum

3d model repository= online resporses under creative commons practice

share knowledge for free with thingaverse!

examples= https://sketchfab.com/britishmuseum/models?cursor=cD0yMDE2LTExLTIxKzEzJTNBNDIlM0EwNi4wNDUyNTE%3D

3d files can get corroded!! online things are not around forever! floppy disc? the files on It might not open or be damaged ooooo interesting = electronic resources are not there forever, some file types dont work forever! game of telephone can happen with premade files

• think about patina, that the corrosion is the important part, so is that applicable to electronic resources?

• ideas about quality "tinkling with excitement"

NEED STL FILE FORMAT

@techspaces_appstatelibraries CHECK IT

Hammad: more personal, almost like I'm there and able to see different perspective

Emma: the expanse of everthing! the marble floorpan was crazy the marble was everywhere and so much was happening in every space

the people helped me feel like I was there

Hannah Pope: theres a lot of variables that go into rendering a VR space, and human error is possible, but understandable given the scope of some of these projects

Lynn: the action of looking upwards made the experience really real for me, helped me understand the scale and hit harder, awe inducing

Connor: really interesting involving new technology with art history, the recreations of old places allows you to see the space as it was intended instead of in ruins

its not just mysterious ruins!

Dr. Peters: because "mysterious" and "ruins" words are indeed racist

Emma: (used "temporal other" to describe ancient people)

Meredith: temporal other? that insinuates the idea that we don't live in the same world or experience it in the same way. it makes ahistorical, gives blurbs of context

good starting point for those that aren't privileged but I see that a lot is missing

Lynn: theres experience where you can do the emmersive experiences on screens that are more accessible than

Dr. Peters: always think of where this info is coming from and what is the primary goal

Jalen: not a fan of the coloring, at times the grass felt way too bright

Hannah Pope: sometimes they have to pick and choose what to render properly, the environment or the architecture

• theres a flat screen option to play with!

Fake Museum of Fine Art

Baalbek reborn

Rome reborn

Can we define their culture without ignoring history?

Should obelisks be returned?

How are the carvings and inscriptions signiicant to the assumed meaning or intended purpose of the obelisks?

Papers given by Holly Pittman and Susan Sorek

Obelisks Main Points:

• global monuments that represents many nations and cultural histories

• associated with the cult of the sun god by both bancient egyptians and romans

• monuments of military prowess and power

• carved with narratives of battles won and tributes given

• used as a symbol of power for the leaders of their time seen with the right to rule, specifically with Augustus

• sometimes used as political bargining chips, symbolizing goodwill, a giving of power

Video on erection of obesisls

Lateran Obelisk

• monument built under the reign of pharaoh Thutmose

  • originally placed outside Amun temple at Karnak/ shows importance of the sun/ symbol of power

    • then traveled to Rome in center of Circus Maximus= big performance area where people saw it all the time

    • Pope placed it with a cross and the pope's coat of arms, top of

  
  

Cleopatra's Need

• erected at Temple of Sun in Heliopolis by Thutmose III

  • then moved in front of temple of Cesar (theorized a symbol of power)

• given to New York as a gift, inteded to increase America in investing in Egypt= America wanted its own Obelisk

• many egyptians saw it as a personal loss, controversy about repatriation

Montecitorio Obelisk

• originally stood in Heliopolis

• lots of imagery on this associated with divine right to rule

• acted as a sundial, solar meridian

• one of the first divices that

• successful conquest in a time of peace, stands in front of Italian House of Parliment

White Obelisk

32 Frames, low relief, 8 registers, originally Neo Assyrian King p

• scenes of conquest, order not fully known

• Assyrian narrative reliefs developed

• used as propoganda tools

• influenced later cultures relating to themes of

Significant in marking periods of time... used as a calendar? unlikely

Jalen= how did they erect the obelisk? video explained that they used time, how did places that didn't have sand erect them?

Hannah= for places that didn't have sand, they would have used lifts and pullys to lever it up into plae, like for the Needle they had a life contraption

no concrete facts on how they got those bad boys erected

Hammad: When I think of obelisks I Instantly think of Egypt, but the readings educated me on obelisks that aren't. it's really based on how much information or knowledge that is out there. American obelisks are a little sus thought.

Connor: the Assyrian obelisks specifically talked about the White obelisks portrayed Assyrian visual narratives/ talked about that those visual narratives told history, and often analysis is done by their language rather than visual depictions, not many Assyrian murals that portray narrative history/ they would add information to these obelisks, language contradictory to visual analysis in some cases

comparing different obelieks in their time

Meredith: what I understood that the White obelisks was a recreation of a wall of the throne room, not everyone was allowed to be in throne room, brought that information outside

questionable layout to understand the visual information after coming from the wall reliefs into the four sided jawn

Dr. Peters: so images and text and movement was the analytical issue

Cardin= I was questioning how it was used as a religious item too! with the obelieks moving to constantinople because it was a pagan item being assimilated into catholic vibes and when the ottoman came in, they also left the obelieks

Meredith= wonder if the age of the obeleks had anything to do with that. when it was used as a spolia, but Rome also ruled Egypt but Egypt still had their own opinions and vibes so was it emperor comin in

as emperors moving them to new capitals they were already antiques, so it wasn't like a pagan thing it was seen as something being so old..... but like wait some of them were contemporaneous

Hammad= now that we see Roman style architecture in American places, a lot of Americans that aren't aware of influence consider them American

so we are making it our own by incorporating it into visual culture or it is like staking claim

Cardin= a huge symbol of america is the statue of liberty and that was literally french so I can see how movement of obelieks

Meredith= this question in terms of semantics instead of forms especially with the assyrian obelieks is that the name for the form or the representation, has that always existed

Dr. Peters= its a greek word!!! retained the greekness

Lynn= thinking about the carvings and inscriptions/ obelieks have taken on new meaning when given, the inscriptions were shattered but it contributed to its culture, important to us now but then the inscription might have been secondary then, only important to a specific group of people because only 1% of the population could read!!!!

Hannah= yes! good point about white obelisk and significant to the point in the writing which is that the carvings are so similiar to the ones found in the throne room and they are laid out in such a strange way we can't figure out

thinking of obeliks as a public monument, would have been more accessible to a wider group of people from different levels of society

important part of conveying the power of the ruling class

Meredith= thats super interesting because it separates the form from the content and thinking baout the washington monument, wht youre saying using the white obelieks as example bc one inscribed and one not... the scale might be important but the conveying of pwoer is more intrinsic to the form of the obelieks itself instead of the inscription

form is used to convey power instead of relying on those inscriptions like Lynn said

Jalen= more important on an intricacy level, the fact that it is detailed would have been more desirable, a big hunk of stone is impressive because it is a feat in itself, and the way it stands is super valuable, its intimidating

Cardin= can't you also go inside the washington monument

Milo= desirablility, based on the individual bc the American Egyptomania, they would want something that looks specifically Egyptian so thats more valuable to Americans

Dr. Peters= also the Romans! Egyptomaniacs? The Romans ate that shit up

Established program of appreciation vs. appropriation

thinking of this as a trajectory

We've been interested in Egypt for so long

seen as an extra exotic thing thats not

Lynn= I keep thinking about the obelisks in america being the reason

monuments of what is fallen and not what is won how american architecture talks about power

Abby= the washington monument has a few words on it and it says something about american culture

Cardin= the function of the monument is important to consider

Hannah= nuanced version during the long durae

revivals, reception

Connor: obelisks were symbols of power, they talked about different uses of the obeliek to perpetuate ideologies about Augustus specifically. the location of the obelisks was significant to their function

Hammad:

Roman Emperor Augustus=divine right to rule

Theodosious= employed obelisks to affirm christianity and imperial dominance

Milo: awesome, did anyone

Meredith: should the obelisk be understood as spolia? did they become Roman in teh same way other spolia? how does this function symbolise power/peace

Lynn: power and peace, I believe that a lot of the examples in the text were made after war in pursuit of peace, and the inscriptions show what they did to achieve that so I dont know if you can separate ideas of violence from obelkes but I dont know if it counts

Dr. Peters: Egyptian Obelisk were not militaristic in nature. I dont know if just the Romans used it in war,

Hannah: maybe not war, but a symbol of pwower and the establishment of conquest in an empire and they are symbols of that power and the solidifcationn of the extension of that power. one of the articles associated obeleiks with peace

Meredith: a lot of spolia

Dr. Peters: power= war is a modern ideal. power can be ascribed in a lot of different ways to ancient people

ancient people had a different frame of reference that we cannot project back to so think about It in layers the assumptions of Rome

What is war????!!!! power structures and events??????

Connor: understanding history is that we haven't changed as a species so I believee its not spolia because the way that they would use the obelieks and move them was a transformation of the object themselves, didn't undermind the essece of taking over the object but more a way to symbolize dominance and victory and cultural sharing= reciprocal relationship, blending of cultures is what empires eventually become

Abby: I think youre saying its not spolia because of cultural blending but I think it is spolia because of that because the movement and ascribed meanings changed with that movement

(understanding of the historiography)

THERE ARE NO WRONG ANSWERS

OBELIEKS ISN'T AN EGYPTIAN WORD

gabby: I just found a quote about how people interacted with white obelieks in museum, and he said "I watched visitor and nobody took a picture, and little eye contact, asked people about it and they said they didn't notice it and weren't jazzed about the hunk of rock" does the meaning change now that we are in modern times

Hammad: a lot people probably ignored it because not many people talked about assytria j

people have more of an awareness of Egypt and don't even consider Assyria

Connor: a lot of museums undermine certain works because of the spatial arrangement where they highlight a bunch of pieces all together all at once. the scale of the space directs where your attention goes / decontextualized the object as a part of everyday life

Gabrielle: I also think it has to do with the setting / it doesn't stand out as a significant space

Jalen: could it be an issue instead of meaning, perception. they just see it as big hunk of rock but could it be they dont perceive the bug hunk of rock as something that has a meaning

Cardin: the museum is also a temple

-------

Gabby: so do these obelisk belong in museums

Hammad: I think it all depends on

dynamic on preservation of memory in public space or in museum place

preservation of power

is the museum workin alongside the dynamics of power or are they juxtaposed.

are these dynamics at odds or complimenting each other or is one more important than the other

integrity of narrative of the obelisk itself

Hannah: so a leveling of status based on its position

where it previously held a place of power, it now doesn't hold that same status when placed in a museum. with the deterioration of the stone it doesn't hold the same appreciation and that is conected to the knowledge around the culture it came from (Assyria

Gabby: so is the solution to take them out of the museum

what would allow an obeliek to retain its merit

Milo: i think its a really general question and you need to look at the object specifically. so consider the climate of the space, Cleo's Needle suffered a lot of weather damage and museum guys tried to repatron it because the weather and smog and pollution fucked it up

museums prevent further deterioration

Dr. Erin: debate about cleaning it also, crazy technology, how much ethical and technological consideration there was about taking off the dirt. the dirt kept getting worse

Hammad: reminds me of the Sistine Chapel, the issue of the saturation of color, they chose to clean the grime away and people were mad and thought that the restorers

problem of deducing the intention of the artist

preservation of public memory

Hannah: the dirt protected the integrity the general "shit" protected the remaining stone of the obelisks

Gabrielle: the technology used was specific to the object being restored

Lynn: if we can't put it outside without most likely damaging it then would gifting it to someone in political power

if we are giving it back its context and we cant correct the form form we must correct the function = who should we gift it to? does the museum have that power? what does that connotation mean if it was connected to someone like Trump?

Cardin: gifting brings up ideas of who obelisks?? if we gifted it as a political thing it wouldn't hold the same connotations???

Hannah: we have to look at the whole history of the obelisk

context, original,

Lynn: TALKING FROM A PLACE OF HAVING IT PERCEIEVED AS A THING OF AUTHORITY

Milo: would the intention be for the sake of pwoer or to reward positive power?positive relation between two places and giving it to politicians someone will have negative connotations

connor: what if we gave it to Dolly Parton?

Pyramid of GIZZA: tombs/ sacred space/ astrological considerations in design elements

El Castillo Mayan Pyramid: similar in astrological design elements

Egyptian Influence on Western Architecture:

• uncovering of Rosetta Stone by Napoleon in 1799

Mausoleo Schilizzi, Napels Italy= influenced by Egyptian Symbolism

/ article said the symbols were used correctly, topic for further discussion

• west used ancient Egyptian motifs to symbolize death, topic for further discussion

Luxor Hotel and Casino:

• capitalizes American view of Egyptian architecture

• "mystery" ahem "orientalist" viewpoint

• "tomb robbers and casino goers.... what do they have in common?" OOF

• conspiracy theories! amuck!

• hyperbolic language used to sensationalize Egyptian culture

Bass Pro Pyramid:

• built in 1991

• conceieved of as the "Great American Pyramid" 60% scale of Khufufu

• meant to be

• abandoned in 2004, temporarily used as a church, Bass Pro occypy in 2010, opened in 2015

  • CEO made a bet that if a 30lb catfish was caught the pyramid would be bought.

• appropriates outside imagery, inside is totally bass pro no motifs on egypt on inside

Themes: spectacle/purpose/ orientalism/ a-historicism/ anti-arabic sentiment / commercialism/ appropriation

Jalen: if bass pro had egyptian motifs in the pyramid, I dont know if I would be upset or not! at some point its such a characakture it doesn't feel real/ character of the American Dream

Meredith: distinction between exterior and interior and how that affects the ethic of the situation

Luxor is the whole experience

Just having the form is more innocent than following all the way through

Jalen: I think it would be nice and perhaps even cool if you will, if the heiroglyphs mean something. its funny but also its like bad but also in Vegas. when does a tourist attraction overstep that line? its for the tourism egyptomania effect where everything in Egypt is cool and magical= it was an educaitonal opportunity but it literally says bnothing

Emma: the fact that it doesn't mean something on top of everything implies an inherantly disrespect and they don't take egypt seriously at all. it doesn't mean anything

Lynn: the idea of prosperity with Egypt and casino is the so called "thematic" connection

a lot of the negative reviews are the fact that people paid for recreations, when the advertising was emphasizing immersion and they obviously aren't. is it bad that they are dragging out their schtick

Dr. Peters: Legitimate, genuine, not authentic, for education

National Holocaust Museum? Is It the same? Does it have a different weight? Similar presentation to the Titanic but with a different weight.

Hannah: I think it has a lot to do with engagement. From a POV of education conveying historical narratives. you need the people that are from the culture to interact with the display, because it still does need to be engaging. The Luxor gets people interested in Egypt, but that isn't its intention. its a place of indulgence AND SIN! a really strong topic like mass death or murder/genocide, having something that can keep a viewer engaged with that topic that might be hard to digest is something to keep in mind.

Connor: going back to thinking about experiences of stuff, theres a book that talks about VR as Trail of Tears and what that would look like and going on that experience and how insensitive it is. it can come off as romantic sometimes, romanticizing tragedy. bc VR perceived as more of a game, less about the content!

(romanticization vs. truthful representation)

Meredith: edutainment museums scare me. they're formulating the memory. they use immersive aspects but these things happened in real life.

feel strong emotions

entertainment: engaged

immersive= unique experience that flourishes in independent addicted culture

can it be done effectivly? what does that look like? how can you mitigate it being a game?

Dr. Peters: in 6th grade it was so lifechanging I decided to go into museum work. I was so overwhelmed and could empathize to a powerful degree. My experience with this was more unmediated

Meredith: something about the mediation was interesting, I can see fifth graders now posting online if they didn't have a moving experience in a very joking way, with before there wasn't that opportunity to share the experience in such a widespread way. now theres more immersive experiences in you house. instagram is probably more immersive than going to a brick and mortar museum that used to be the standard of immersion

how does that change the way that museums should be understood by the people going to them? how do you go about making it impactful in an age of technology? Is VR the solution or taking us further away

Hammad: technology is a tool and it needs to be used in an ethical way that doesn't detract from the experience. I understand using technology in a museum space, for engagement and accessibility. I would maintain the tactile element so that you can retain grounded in something like a sacred space to pay more attention and be more introspective than using digital means.

********nugget of information important to thursday*************

gabrielle: so within Luxor, Is it used well?

Connor: theres a spread of misinformation with Luxor VR. parallels the World Fairs in the way they commodify the cultures specifically the streets of Cairo with the blending of history and flattening of ages. theres no thought it comes across as a theme park instead of education

Emma: the way we've been talking about education is interesting because going to Las Vegas is a lot more accessible than going to Egypt. But if it does have some information thats true and helpful and its their first experience and find it interesting.

education is on a lot of different levels and college is a privilege. it could have a good affect

Cardin: if someones first information of a culture is misinformation that skews later forms of learning / shapes your understanding

Dr. Peters: how do we tease out the bad in education?

Meredith: oh we trust the Luxor to be our first encounter with Egypt? how? and this industry is privatized and commercialized and honestly banking on people not going to real Egypt

my hope is that enough public educating institutions that are able to carry that / theres also a lot of fiction

reconcile the role of the instutuion and who is fit to educate and who is not?

Emma: "whos fit to educate!" that phrase is so interesting and on different levels

"Who has the right to decide how a city functions"

• "Who has the right to mediate the culture?" Wgat dep

What is the purpose of recreating ancient Egyptian motifs in the present day?

Hammad: purpose needs to be defined better, different people have different purposes. Hollywood uses a lot of ancient Egyptian motifs and remixed with other elements its to create an experience of the "other" Apocalypse xman villain was bi

• anti-arabic sentiment: reoccurring thing in modern culture/ used ancient motifs to perpetuate stereotypes

Meredith: modern use seems to act as a form of othering. is this a modern thing? we are talking post 9/11 and comics in how we talk about groups of people. how have things changed?

Connor: through history we have always othered through pointing out their dress/habits/ and depciting them as an outside group. its a repititon of history with a society trying to highlight a minoroity and reduce people into different categories. a means to reduce the significance of a group and make themm an enemy

INTENT!

Lynn: bass pro shot just spectacle all bass pro

then we have the luxor was spectacle in a mystic way trying to get you in the door but devoid of value with the motifs \\

real recreations of these items and give real information and say yea we are a spectacle but we are eductaing but probably not the best way

what is the best one out of all three? is it pkay

Emma: re: who makes decisions

the way we use different words and how we talk about culture and art over time

we are dictated by negatives, yet we are trying to find the right way to discuss

once it happened it

evolution of

the space given for other cultures

once we start having these converstaions now that we know what not to do we know thats bad

if It was from a place of facination

Dr. Peters: the avenues for which critique to happen have expanded since 1993 so now theres an immediate space for immediate feelings and voices from literally everyone

Connor: so if bass pro shop should be more respectful? if we were to speak on this, neo classical spaces are relevant

Jalen: I think it def has to do with intent. the pyramid wasn't built to be a bass pro shop. the shop doesn't have to pay homage because that's not their goal. its just a building. accountability? acknowledgment! the structures declared intention

was there something corrupt to begin with?

Hannah: corrupted.... it would have been corrupted to begin with because they went with an immediately recognizable shape and a very important TOMB from a different culture. I can't imagine how offended America would be if a tomb to our favotire

Dr. Peters: Arlington National Cemetery example

BRETT RENFER

Emerging Technology at The Met

Senior Project Manager, Emerging Technology

Met: top five most visited museum

5,000 years of art

the met has beenn a tech innovators foever

the first website! Media Lab!

Immersive Media: Brett started in the corporate space for tech companies exct.

Last 8 years been specifically with museums

Chroma. AR learn about polychromic sphinx

Spent 3 years desinging the permanent childrens space/ led the interpretive planning. space to let kids explore materials and materiality

a lot of lofi experiences

you can carve a dig

the immersive space for kids=how to adapt it to adults?

High Level Strategy/ Low Level Exploration

• how do we test something how to not get stuck in conversation

• how do you learn is super important

Role:

1. Explore proofs of concept ( how is this different when doing things for kids vs. adults??)

2. Test and Evaluate

Emerging Technology:

• big older museum- restraint

• relevant to the types of stories to tell

• no quantum computers

Now, cutting Edge

NExt, Bleeding Edge= actively test

Future, Blue Sky=creation

Why?

1. reach new audiences

2. extend the experience , VR/ home experiences

3. expand access , accessibility/ scholarly content how to show things off display

Process:

Cyclical= discover, assess(strategy)f, explore(making, seeing), evaluate (prototype, good or bad, ask randos)

Huge Opportunityhmmmmm Huge InitiativeYAAAAA

hear me out...

Huge Opportunityhmmmmm Atomize------- Focused Initiatives (stay nimble , scope)

Prototypes, Pilots, Projects

• sense of what this looks like

• AR project wsith greek and Roman Department

• interact with on site

• learned from data that people only interacted so much

• showed ancient sculptures in color, interactive on site, people will spend 2/3 minutes

• 3-11 seconds with art, changing that

• goal is to make people stay and LOOK//////ART OF LOOKING

• too much to put on label, or catalouge, dialogue in a way that is fluid and compelling

• how do we deliver new info? how can we make magical experiences? Took wedding photo and brought her back to life

how to use technology in a more logistical way? take a photo of an image ot search and learn more about the art work

working with curators to understand what type of technology will change the way the art is experienced

too overwhelming? too fatigued?

how to introduce interactivity = pushing content to people byut go to a pace and make something

what is the why of technology? what opportunities does it unlock?

DIGITAL RESTORATIONS!

how is this fueled by competition?

Connor: how are you compensating for the large amount of energy?

Brett: the overall goal is to reduce the carbon footprint

whats difficult is that a lot that is opaque and we do a lot locally and small strategic scale and work with partners to transition to fully renewable server farms

and then we gotta think about risk and reward

our biggest carbon footprint is the transportation

mitigating risk as much as we can

COGNITIVE LOAD REDUCE THE BARRIER "AM I SPENDING MY TIME THE RIGHT WAY"

IS THERE ALWAYS A CHOICE TO ENGAGE WITH THE TECHNOLOGY?

SOMETIMES YOU GOTTA LEAN INTO THE TECHNOLOGY

I believe in reinforcement learning

labels and tours and didactic pieces

redundant experiences to induce agency

and they can reinforce each other

How do people come? Most people come as a group=

emphasizing shared experiences

Meredith: talk a little more about the art link, how it interacts? how user interaction has been going? do people only associate it with the met or whenever or where ever

Brett: totally played at home

• play with strategy with modern and contemporary wing

• a bunch of amazing pieces can't see in person

• why does the MET have a modern space? how works In context

• always one or more contemporary works

• not buried in a search,

• INTENTION AND TIME

-Cardin, Connor, Emma, Jalen

Diego Rivera:

• bold large-scale murals

• revival of fresco painting in Latin America

Goal:

1. to emphasize the return to the troots of traditional cutlure

2. emphasize a sense of belonging

3. emphasize national identity

Role of Murals in Mexico

• prominent in the 20th century during the muralist movemnt

• mexican state sponsored cultural works to create a sense of identity after the war for independence

• history

• indigenous culture

• struggles of the working class

• nation-building

• indigenismo

• modernization

• socialist politics (how does this tie into the traditional cutlure emphasis???)

Movement following Mexican Revolution in 1920

Los tres grandes

• Diego Rivera, Jose Clemente Orozco, David Alfaro Siqueiros

Emphasized role of working class people as both labor suppliers and target audience for murals

inspired american artists such as jackson pollock!!!

Video from the MOMA

convey social and political messages

"what the nation should be"

Secretaría de Educación Pública in Court of Labor

• depict traditional economic activities like mining and sugar harvesting influenced by Mexican regions

• the south facing wall depicts weavers and dyers from Tehuantepec and sugarcane harvesting in Yucatán

• northern region is represented by workers at steel foundries, farmers

• west facing wall depicts mining, farming and pottery creation

highlights vibrant cultural traditions of festivals and daily lives of Mexican people

showcase use of color and dynamic compositions

inspiration from pre-coloumbian, popular forms and indiginous art

murals informed by Rivera's enamorent with Mexico's atural beauty

south-facing wall features

(noticed lack of faces

Corrido of the Agrarian Revolution and Corrido of the Proletarian Revolution

• renders figures and forms outside the frame

• inllusionistic archways

• bringing subject matter into viewers sapace

• womens singing corrido in the countryside reflecting Mexican Revolutions success

• literacy scenes highlight education's central role in post- revolutionary project (antithetical to teh reading from 1960)

• farmers symbolize harmony with the land

• contrasts capitalism with the health of land-valued individuals

• compares campitalism with socialism

Third Floor:

Corrido of the Proletarian Revolution

• successor to Mexicos recent revolution

• this shift aligned with revolutionary art with global class conciousness

• symbolize the artists role in fostering a united proletarian movement for a better world

History Depicted (Cardin)

• Spanish Conquest/ mexican eagle

From left to right: French rule and emperor maximilian, Porfirian era= dictoral rule, independence and the Mexican revolution , reform and juarez era, US invasion

West Wall: depicts spanish conquest, four arches above depict French and American conquests

surrounds mexico with conquests and wars

shows arrival of missionaries and destruction of pre-Columbian temples

North Wall:

• large scale representation of Mesoamerica before spanish invasion

• deity quezalcoatl based on Florentine Codex imagery

• shows mesoamerican pyramid and (is it a pyramid?????)

• shows azzttec world as utopian showing laborers resistence and war

South Wall:

• class conflict between industrial capitalism and workers worldwide

• the narrative begins in the lower right and progresses upward in a reverse S-curve pattern (what is the significance of the S-curve pattern????)

promote Mexican national identity! allow access to these murals!! not didactic, encourages active interpretation by the viewer

lack of illusionistic space and flat forms creates a composition that allows for interpretation

Historey of Morelos ocnquest and Revolution

• shows the conquest of mexico by the spanish

• focuses on historical timeline of the events occuringn

• fully depicts hisotry in three walls

• first mural by Diego to be funded the state

Detroit Industry Murals

• created by Diego Rivera showcase American Insutry in a national epic

• theme of coexistence and duality of humans and technology

• coatlicue stamping press = included as a sacrifice of working paeople

• figures represenging the diverse worksforces

baby vaccinated depicted in teh same vein as Renaissance Jesus

• a lot of catholics took issues with it, and college students supported it

• the industry is the making of a car (space isnt as flat here, any good reason???)

Indigenismo: a social and political movement in Latin America advocating the increased involvement, influence or representation of indigenous peope in public policy

ex. Vendedora de alacatraces

• depicts indigenous flower seller

• everyday struggle, working class nature

• mournful embrace

Closing thoughts and Questions: do the locations and setting sof the other explaines such as the detroit industry murals inform your interpretation and understanding of Rivera's motics? inside vs. outside

IN what ways does Rivera's mural use symbolism to depict Mexico's history and

---

Meredith: using indigenous symbols and motifs was a way of validating and authenticating indiginous culture and craft in Mexico

Abby: How does the mural function as a ritual?

MEredith: storytelling ritual, this is what hapens and this is where we are going- commisioned by the new government as a purpose of legitimizing the new regime

Rivera uses indiginous motifs in order to do that, shows how these cultures and ideals can be woven into the future, seeing progress as linear

Gabrielle: ritual can be based on where the viewer sees it first, so the indigenous can actually be read as a future

Abby: I read it as nonlinear as well! they purposely flattened it so no one person sticks out! with the indigenous stuff it felt very purposeful so they are in the past but also the future

Milo: if the ritual is how its read then the meaning is based on the viewer, did he make any visual cues to guide the viewer? because that changes how the ritual is done

Hammad: I connected it to my own experience in the US. teh eagle and cactus- the way people view it as a ritual is the same way of Americans saying the pledge of allegiance, unsaid ritual that people follow, becomes a national shared identity \

Jalen: its important to see Rivera as a holistic person, gave relevance to the entire process of his work

Dr. Peters: the mural in the palace

= the government and the stae are not the people

a capitalist government is antithetical to the workers

the working class is where the identity is=the bigger picture about the indigenous past and the Indigenous past

patron rather than the people

Emma: very different than his so called purpose and intent,

Connor: using art museum puts It in a space of inaccessibility

these murals were meant to be put somewhere that remained

Jalen: I think it has something to do with the mindset that indigenous people are not viewed as modern people and highlighted as aspects of his past, and he represented them distinctly pre-columbian and this depicted them in a modern style

even with his works and readings I interpreted it that Rivera saw himself above indignous people so his intentions are not innocent

Cardin: he sees himself as fit to educate on this matter

*********read before you go to bed!!!********

jalen: I dont think he was the greatest person but I think he tried?????

Meredith: art vs. the artist/ bad person doesn't mean bad art

Jalen: has a lot to do with subject matter, just one dude writing the narrative

Google Maps shows the scale when looking from the balcony = open!!!!!!!

Meredith: What efforts are they taking to preserve the mural? Thinking about it

Jalen: people aren't caring about the preservation as much as becuase

meredith: I know rain can't reach it but its open to moisture, are normal people going to National Palace/ so why is the word palace here?

Emma: the scale is really important in the viewing experience and understanding the purpose

Authoritative! Gives "official" experience

Lynn: the main see is the eagle! it represents mexico city as an establishment and sets the person up to represent war and subverts expe

Jalen: I think its interesting that we don't associate murals with mexican culture

Emma: I agree that we don't see murals as Mexican, but everyone knows about realism in the renaissacne, but Diego was controversial and doing the most

very successful but can you separate the art from the artists

he could have been too political for some people so it might have been easier to move on and not stress the politics as much

Meredith: maybe why we don't assciate mexico with murals and why diego is controversial as well, thinking about content

when we think of very traditional emblic frescos its religious and philosophical in nature and this is very different and only relevant to the state of mexico

going back to the structure and how it legitimizes= high ceilings and large arches

Dr. Peters: where you learn information is representative of your frame of reference

Hammad: When I think of murals I think of a cityscape or a small scale display of important sites and people

I've never seen murals and frescos of this scale

murals have a strong impact and memory

Lynn: scale doesn't always translate into power, when I first started these readings I thought of the Longest Mural in the Wolrd in LA and the woman who brought it together was a Chicana woman who allowed for people in the community to tell their story but that scale doesn't mean that chicana women had more power

it was impactful becuase of how much it told, and how much it imposes

Hammad: I would say that the Great Wall displays power, but in a very different way than we understand. Rivera is a top down mural where in LA it's the opposite!

Jalen: I wonder if it has to do with orientation, because this mural is so imposing and large and high up

The great wall of LA is very wide instead of tall. so it doesnt hang over you it is arranged by bodily composition

Connor: The way this work is composed its like a representation of the mexican flag

each wall is a specific period, uses colors of flag in background

uses verticle azis and turns into linear

Jalen: I would consider this performative activism, but I dont think its a bad thing because it does a good job of displaying a narrative that the viewer can interact with because there is no start and no end and the way that history is told is how you see it and how history isn't linear

Connor: not far from temple mayor, so this plaza as a center of history is a major center of the city for visibility and how that plays into the mural itself

Cardin: I found it interesting that it looks like all the events are happening at the same time and all a part of the history

Lynn: the idea of overwhelming that meredith brought up stuck with me

because the artists intention was realized

creates a narrative of what you see

the two side pannels are kinda set points

Dr. Peters: thinking about actually being in that space and walking around and moving is an important aspect of it

the author states logistic things that are made possible

Cardin: you have to physically make a choice on how you view it

Lynn: if you look at the subject matter its really interesting that the farmworks are going up the stairs and you are the people with the people

you are always walking with the people rather than the elites

Dr. Peters: the people / physicality of movement is related to performance and the ritual is moving through it with your mind and body which changes the way you understand something and its going to be different in a perfomative sense so less poser

Lynn: who has the right to educate?

Meredith: goes back to talking about performative activism, is it even activism at all if you are supporting a structure in power already? can it be ideologically productive in this context?

did he use his privilage for good?

Meredith: it doesn't appear to be genuine

Cardin: rainbow capitalism, use pride as a way to gain money instead of trying to change fairweather

Lynn: humans have free will.

legality vs. ethics

public perception and interaction

Cardin: if you let the mural deteriorate in the same way as the stair

its where your eye goes