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Obviously, the Athenians weren't weak if they managed to defeat the Persian empire empire which was the largest of that time with half the men and without the "great" Spartans who abandoned them.

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Wanna keep this going?

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Future meaning if Sparta had not taken over, they could've fixed the laws because of their democracies.

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The future? This is the classical era, what future

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At least Athens is remembered for greatness even after its fall and most people wish they would've won.

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Why leave our humanity behind you ask? Why kill a Neutral state who would very much rather not get involved in conflict?

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To beat softes like you in battle. We already went over this, find a new argument.

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And why spend your whole life training to kill leaving your humanity behind? How can anyone leave their own child to die after its birth? And they discriminated against former slaves because citizens had to be considered completely loyal and the law could've changed in the future.

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But, Milos was a free man. A former slave. Why discriminate based on one's past?

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Because slaves weren't considered as citizens anywhere at that time. We already went over this argument.

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The reading also stated that former slaves and non natives could not vote... Every citizen is not even every man

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The council represented the people and all citizens had a chance to be on the council as I already said and as is stated in the reading. " every citizen has a chance to become a government official".

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Athens also had a strong navy fully capable of fighting. Being a democracy, it gave all citizens a chance to be part of the council and make decisions and if given some time, I'm sure they would have ruled out laws prohibiting slave and women rights.

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Back on the subject of the "democracy" Athens had; only a few specific men could vote on issues or have a voice. Sounds familiar... doesn't sound like democracy though...

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At least Athenians didn't leave their weak or sick children to die like Spartans. That is humanity. And training only betters your skill and body but it does nothing for your brain and soul which the Athenians focused on. If men didn't speak of what ifs then we would still be in the Paleoloithic age. Action has no meaning without thought and reason.

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There is nothing amazing about men speaking of what-ifs. A real man takes action, you will find many men take action in Sparta.

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"Lost our humanity" you say? Says the Athens that slaughtered a neutral tribe under the guise that "The strong will the weak". Nice humanity there, real nice.

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What do you think all that training is for? If we were not "bettering ourselves" we would not be training.

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If you focus on the individuals, like Confucius said, the society is better as a whole because of it because everyone is bettering themselves. In Sparta they have no freedom to be anything or do anything other than fight and train and they seem more like killing machines than humans. Even if Sparta did win, it was because they lost their humanity. At least Athens fell after giving the world amazing cultural and artistic influences unlike Sparta which is just known for their fighting.

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All slaves work, it is no different here in Sparta

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It say's in our text that; "Athenians valued the individual above the group.". How can Athens as a whole be better than Sparta if they are busy choosing the best of themselves?

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In most democracies, the rights are for citizens because they are loyal to the state and in that time period women and slaves had little rights anywhere including Sparta. Also, they were not cruel to their slaves and allowed them to workto work.

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If Athenians were not weak, they would have defeated the Spartans in their conquest of Greece

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Athens did not have weak men as it states in the reading "Atheninans stressed physical fitness". They just weren't obsessive to a fault about it like Spartans

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"A great place to live"? Explain; also how is Athens a "democracy" if only citizens can participate? (Knowing that citizenship only applies to men born and raised in Athens as well as not ever being slaves).

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In Sparta, its citizens are trained and keep themselves in peak condition well into their 60s. Meanwhile, Athens is filled with weak men who focus on little more than "arts".

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Athens was the most powerful democratic city in Greece and it was a great place to live.