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Are both only useful as long as it we do something with it? After viewing lessons, does it highlight a school-wide need that informs CPD or particular teachers need support and then that gets put into place? Rather than a subjective judgement about that one lesson. As someone said, if the culture is right, open classrooms can allow us to learn so much from seeing each other teach, it supports collaboration and professional dialogue beyond our classrooms.

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Sherrington's book Walkthrus has an interesting spin on unseen observations. All based around professional discussions. I'm looking through his materials and finding some of it quite supportive of our coaching ethos.

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Yes, completely agree about observation and shared discussion. A second pair of eyes in the classroom especially with an agreed focus can be invaluable. I have found this particularly useful with really experienced colleagues, it has generated some powerful discussion, including some "How on earth did you do that!?" moments! :-)

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I agree with the take away from Mary Myatt.  Her book - High Challenge, Low Threat is borne out in her work.  Our current whole school project on curriculum, led by Mary, has really proven this. Staff are open to her thoughts and feedback.

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His point early on was interesting: that observation is valid when things are clearly at the poor end of the spectrum. Perhaps that is all our evaluation needs to achieve: make sure that action is taken if a colleague falls clearly below an acceptable standard. Then it becomes much more focused.

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Careful - and perhaps it also goes back to reflection by the teacher.  The observer says "I saw you do this..." and the the observed teacher evaluates its effectiveness with evidence, rather than a judgement imposed by the observer....

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My current thinking is around teacher feedback, developed from our own current practice as teachers.  How do we engage in this feedback? On what basis do we make this? What are the questions that should start this dialogue?

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https://impact.chartered.college/article/challenging-the-status-quo-coherent-teacher-development/

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Theres a lot here about observation from judgemental points of view. What is you've built a culture of observation as a tool for constructive conversations (Robinson, 2019?) Observation and shared discussion linked to the outcomes and behaviours (learning) of pupils is still incredibly powerful.

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It echoes back to our first day with Mary Myatt, when you take away the fear of judgement and comparison we are more likely to engage and get more positive outcomes.

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I think we might need to re-visit his article in impact? Perhaps, not stop doing it, but be *really* careful about what we do with it. How we communicate feedback to alleviate the 'proxy' issue?

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I am struggling with this too. Even if it is not the right thing to do I do think there is a strong pressure within the school system as a whole to make evaluative judgments of teacher performance.

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Some interesting observations (pun intended) but is the upshot is that we can't really evaluate teacher effectiveness and so should we stop trying to do so?

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I am struggling with this issue - how can we develop a more collaborative and coaching based approach whilst also gathering strong evidence about the effectiveness of teaching in our schools?

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I liked the section on outcomes more than the observation part.

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The two tests are useful too: is it accurate; is it desirable? The desirable is an angle I have not really thought about previously.

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Agreed - I am glad to be taking away ammunition for a discussion with a bit of an old-school SIP I'm working with.

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The big reveal I am sure is coming any minute

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The practices he is describing are still very much alive and well in my setting! This is a very useful summary of the arguments against observation and data for high-stakes evaluation. I am waiting for the lightbulb moment too :-)

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Yes - I'm waiting for the big 'tadah' moment on what we should do.

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Lots about what we shouldn't do to evaluate teacher effectiveness so far ...

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I suppose it comes down to what you want from lesson observations. I do not put much value on them in terms of a nuanced judgement of teacher effectiveness. I get this more from student work and outcomes. However they have some uses in terms of identifying bigger issues where support is needed or  a value in terms of validating that things are 'OK'

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Strong focus on lesson observations in this video. This is making this less pertinent for my practice as we do not do those for all the aforementioned reasons.

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The point about subject-specifics is music to my ears. Whole school CPD over the past X years has often missed the mark for me in my little maths world. We were one of the best performing (results) departments in our LA but we often described as 'pedestrian' and chided for not following the latest 'thing' by our school leadership.

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40-50% are inaccurate apparently.

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Yes, curriculum trumps all.

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That is a fantastic statistic - flipping a coin as reliable as a lesson observation

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I suppose our starting point is that they are following a curriculum that directs this but I agree that this is open to subjectivity in terms of what a teacher covers and how they cover it. Interesting links to autonomy here

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Food for thought - learning is an internal process yet student voice is not being considered here.

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I thought exactly the same thing. What if I want them to learn does not help them make good progress and be successful?

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This definition of teacher effectiveness is interesting as it assumes the teacher has made informed decisions about what they want students to learn in the first place.