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@NEha we see that occur during the crusades as it is often reffered to as a holy war

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war is because the people have conflicting interests and they see it as necessary.

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merchants will willing risk their lives for the potential of trading and cultural diffusion

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@suraj Not everyone is scared of totalitarian societies. Why do you think people needed concentration camps in North Korea?

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@Suraj People can showcase their thoughts in literature because it is written in by humans so it must show their thoughts. "Fighting South of Ramparts"is a perfect example because Li Bo protests against war using imagery and Taoist beliefs.

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Try to create a feasible trade route in the post classical period that didn't exist and that might have brought commercial success to different societies.

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I agree. The center of the post-Classical isn't necessarily a specific location, but the exchanges that facilitated diffusion in the era.

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Southernization brought improved technologies from the south into the north, further developing societies. Would you say that there was a northernization? How and why do you think that?

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literature brings upon flaws of human nature and in social structures with another level of emotions and feelings

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it's emily btw, literature i believe, is hard to base your view of a society on because it can be over dramatized

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How much can we rely on literature to reflect a society's culture? A lot of prominent historical literature was written by educated people or scholars, so those of upper classes, and would likely not reflect the commoners and lower classes. For examle, the Tale of Genji probably reflected the culture of only a small percentage of the Japanese population of that time.

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@Edgar I agree that societies are willing to interact with other societies even though there is risk.

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@Graham Well, literature affects society through propaganda, and like @hannah said, they impose ideas on people. People used to believe dragons were real. How do you think that idea spread?

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I think the princess is lying. Even she knew that the class separation wouldn't allow for the love to happen. This is tied to the Tale of Genji, which I read for independent reading. The emperor falls in love with a girl of lower class, who mothers Genji, but dies shortly after after being beaten down by the higher class people.

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love has no divisions. But the lovers do.

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Question
How effective was geography in the rise of the southern hemisphere in Southernization?

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I agree. The fact that she felt the authority to command another reveals strict social hierarchies present.

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How does the Tale of Genji show the influence of China? How does it show the unique culture of Heian Japan?

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QUESTION
What does the The Tale of Genji show about the assimilation of Chinese culture in Japan? How does it compare to cultural assimilation in Mongol conquered lands?

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Question: Relating to the Tale of Genji, how is Heian Japan described in terms of social hierarchy, patriarchy and what makes it different from societies from different regions in the same time period?

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Social divisions subjected the lowers people to the higher-up's desires. Chinese people were subjected to mandatory labor, because of the social hierarchy

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How did relations between the church and state in Europe evolve over the period or differ by region? What were their effects

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in the tale of genji, a social pyramid was evident and most of the literature we have read also discusses this, i think this is means that there's always going to be social divisions, without them a society wouldn't be able to tell who has authority and who doesn't

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@Isaac The Mongols did form social divisions... In the Yuan dynasty they formed a "divide and rule tactic"where the Mongols were at the top and the Chinese were at the bottom.

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@Graham I think that's just a stereotype for almost all nomads. I have yet to see a nomad tribe that isn't seen as "barbaric" or anything along those lines. I think that may be because nobody likes nomads. Unless they are sell-swords who can take commands and s=destroy an empire for you. I have yet to meet those as well

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@Graham, according to Crash Course the view of Vikings being "Barbaric" was because of the people who wrote about them who were not happy that they were being raided.

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@Ronald I agree with being able to grow and deal with it. The Kingdom of Ghana grew with trade in gold but fell to nomadic invasions in the Sahara.

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Don't bring up Ishmael. Please

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If the Mongols didn't divide, I think the Mongols would've fallen to internal opposition. The vast land of the empire would have different landscapes housing different people. These people would've developed different ideologies in how to rule, leading to conflict between peoples.

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lets think food for a while. Cookies need to stay strong enough to stay together, but if they are too flimsy, they literally crumble. If you want the whole cookie, you want the recipe that keeps it together.

td;lr i agree and i'm hungry

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militarism is an important factor of a state but the ability to conquer and create a government is just as important because most empires and kingdoms began because of how much they conquered

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@Ronald I disagree that the mongols or the vikings did not have any thing to protect. The vikings eventually settled in Ireland and Great Britain. They took pride in their settlements and even though the vikings did attack and loot monasteries and other religious buildings, they took the treasures back to their settlement to trade. The vikings defended their home. The mongols also defended what they had, granted the mongols moved around, never had a permanent home, and conquered land. The mongols took pride in who they where and defended their own and their possessions.

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@Suraj @Graham @Ronald China developed its relationships with Vietnam, Korea, and Japan during the Sui and Tang dynasties.

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ex. of what he said, tang dynasty/south of the fighting raparts

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@Sarah "Fighting South of the Ramparts" is a perfect example of conflict tearing empires! The Tang were fighting for two years consecutively and this strained resources as they were leagues away and angered citizens like Li Bo which protested through this poem.

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It's just like how the Rus people and the Byzantine empire. The Rus people were able to attack Constantinople when the army was out raiding. Constant battles unroot stability.

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I play Civilization, and its a hard game to keep up with everything. You have to keep in touch with civs, go to war strategically, maintain culture, wealth, happiness and much more. Many factors make a civilization strong, and Civilization V is a testimony to it.

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I just found out how to "@" or reply to people. Forgive me for my earlier mistakes...

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@Hannah I agree that the Mongols were not centralized and this is shown by the Golden Horde. They taxed, but allowed certain princes to collect taxes thus allowing them to grow financially and be able to rise against them.

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There are many reasons that a state or empire can fall: ethnic/racial tensions, social class conflicts, environmental problems, political weakness, nomadic incursions, rebellions, economic collapse, constant conflict

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I agree. Centralization is important to a stable empire, but it can't be just that. I'd say that trade was also an important part.

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Yes, enviroment can destroy a empire, but i belive that plague would pose more of a threat to them, because of its lasting effects on them. Enviroment issues depends on reigon and how large/dispersed the empire is.

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@ronald mongols and fragmentation of their land

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@ronald mongols and fragmentation of their land

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Another way the Mongols are the exception!

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Expansion, internal peace and trade. Talked about in the 1st harkness

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@Hannah Good point- If an empire cannot provide for its citizens, the citizens will revolt.

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I agree that there were environmental factors that contributed to the falls of empires.

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@Suraj I agree that Africa developed with little outside influence up until Islam. For example, the Bantu migrations spread agriculture and after more than two millennia of migrations land became limited thus influencing the development of complex forms of government. As populations grew in kin-based societies it led to strained resources and an increase of conflicts between rival villages which led to the development of military alliances allowing chiefs conquer their neighbors and allies to form a small kingdom. This shows little to no influence of outsiders.

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unification was important but what about feudal Europe? They went by with a decentralized state

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@Issac A strong empire consists of interior stability, a reliable food source, and an ambitious military.e

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@issac what factors made a state strong?

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@issac what factors made a state strong?

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Trade and centralization. Trade facilitated economic growth and productivity, and to control that, a state needed a strong, central government.

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An empire can only be so big, without over extending power and collapsing due to a government that wasn't centralizedenough.

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even without a centralized power, they were still proven effective for multipe years, effectivly conquering most of asia.

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@Ronald I agree that without centralization and inner turmoil led to the Mongols fall. After the death of Chinggis Khan their was a power struggle because he was a conqueror and not a governor. In addition, the Golden Horde fell to Moscow princes because the society was displeased with their rule.

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@Ronald That brings up the question of what form of government is more effective? Centralized or more Feudal? Many of the Centralized empires in history have fallen

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It is evident in the Classical and Post Classical periods that it is hard to govern a state without power and a strong economy.

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@Graham the struggle about the Mongols can be connected to the Classical era with Alexander The Great's empire

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I agree with how you said the Mongol empire demonstrated how a large empire could form and function, but how it also shows how empires can fall quickly. The Mongol empire in its decline was faced with many factors (bubonic plague, rebellions, nationalism, over-extension of land, etc.).

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@Graham An expansive is very difficult to maintain which allows for factions to form when people are displeased. For example, in the Yuan dynasty, the White Lotus rebellion brought down the Yuan dynasty after it was destroyed by the Bubonic plague allowing the Ming to rise.

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Southernization happened before Islam got into the picture. Diffusion into china happened separate from Islam. Without Islam the Persian empire and byzantine empire would have served the same purpose. The carpenter needs plans before building the house, and even if he doesn't have a tool, there are other tools to fill the gap.

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The Mongols had a relatively sustainable polity. They used what they had to develop 4 stronger "empires", had they didn't have adminstrative skill, that wouldn't have happened.

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@Suraj I agree that empires that only focus on conquering more land without maintaining what they already have will fall quickly.

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@Hannah I agree that mongols were not centralized. Would centralization be enough to keep an empire or group strong?

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Islam only spread southernization to other regions. Without India it wouldn't be possible since not only did Buddhism originate from India, but so did the whole concept. Keep in mind that Islam began AFTER the concept of southernization did.

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For s. islam was a tool for it to expand upon...Why do people keep talking as if it was a living thing. I think s. is a bunch of dominoes falling and hitting more dominoes almost by accident-there is no all seeing conscious thought behind it other than humans trying to prosper.

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How do our English Readings demonstrate the importance of religion and trade in the Post Classical period?

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A weak government causes civilizations to fall, yeah

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@Suraj When I first saw the third question I imagined that the center was not a tangible thing and a trade route. I believed that the Indian Ocean trade route allowed Malay and Indian seafarers to spread their goods with the monsoon winds.

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@Suraj I agree with you that trade routes and Islam combined to diffuse cultures and technologies across the eastern hemisphere.

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I don't think that there is a single country/area that was truly the center of this era...it is more like a bunch of stuff acting unknowingly in concert. @Sirraj

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The Mongols were a key peoples in the post-Classical era, but it wasn't the center. It left a large impact, but it was because it drew from so many other civilizations.

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Southernization was spread especially by Buddhists. Think about where most of the Buddhist population is located. China is a good choice since the Mongols accepted other religions.

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Islam is what allowed for the start of it, however it started to surround other regions such as Southern Asia when Southernization started as it spread all the innovations and developments

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the mongol empire might possibly have fallen due to the fact that they split up, at first they established a strong centralized government together but they couldn't keep track of everyone and since each section had their own problems it was too much to try and hold onto

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I agree. Islam was the center of diffusion because so many people associated with it, even geographically it is around the center of post-Classical activity.

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Islamic movements helped spread s. and made it popular.

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@Isaac I agree that without Islam the societies in the Post Classical period wouldn't have been able to develop. A lot of civilizations interacted with Islam and revolved around Islam

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Southernization would have occurred, but it would have just spread A LOT more slowly. In the southernization packet it is said that the Arabs were responsible for many important crops developed or improved in India. They spread these crops to the Middle East, North Africa, and Islamic Spain. Among the most important were cotton, sugar, and citrus fruits.

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@Neha Southernization reached its peak in the 1200's during the power shift ushered in by nomadic invaders, but it started around the Foundations.

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I think southernization was the one that mapped Islam's diffusion. Algebra spread from India to Persia via southernization, so southernization allowed Islam to expand.

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islam made a 'map' for s. can the opposite be said in that s. influenced islamic decisions?

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Islam spread much faster. Southernization was a slower but more influential process, while Islam shot out of the Middle East and went fast.

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The center of the post-classical era was probably the Mongol empire, which was the largest land based empire yet. It connected the larger continental land mass and integrated regions within Eurasia to each other. Europe was being introduced to new, foreign goods from the Far East, South Asia, and other areas. Foreign goods became more widely used in Europe and other regions, and created a large demand for them. This led to many sea explorations and expeditions that would later link the Western and Eastern hemispheres together.

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Technologies weren't the only thing that helped spread southernization, merchants who were trading diffused their culture

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@Edgar I think the spread of southernization had more of an impact than the spread of Islam. Mainly because I think that the spread of Islam helped the spread of southernization and the spread of southernization helped the spread of Islam. However southernization spread from China to India, and from the middle east to Africa, and to the Europe Mediterranean. While Islam spread from Isreal to the middle east and to some parts of Africa.

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@Sarah I agree with you that the Middle East was the center because it was connected to all trade routes in the eastern hemisphere allowing said dynasty to control trade or expand it to their will.

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soo which had a bigger impact on this time period, Islam or Southernization?

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The middle east is where Muslims were. The Muslims only SPREAD southernization. Central Asia is most definitely the center of southernization.

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I agree with @Graham as to where many of the innovations started in Southern Asia

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Id say that the because it encouraged neighboring societies to trade with them, for example the Ottomans and Venetians, as well as mansa musas hajj. There is an argument for Southeast asia to be the center, but keep in mind that we read ONE article that promotes that Idea, but Islam had a more direct impact on the surrounding environment and we've read more sources to support the Islamic nations as the center

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@ronald chess, Christians, Muslims, and India

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@ronald chess, Christians, Muslims, and India

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great contextualization there

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There is more to the post-classical era than just Southernization...

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southernization brought new technologies like new weaponry which is also a negative thing because it lets societies start wars and civil uprisings

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@Sarah I agree that the Middle East was the center of the Post Classical period because it was connected with all trade routes.

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@Hannah Mongol invaders learned about gunpowder from Chinese military engineers and incorporated it into their weapons and arsenal, shown by their artillery units developed in 1214. During the 1250’s, Mongols campaigned in Persia and southwest Asia with gunpowder bombs flung by catapults and Muslim armies soon developed similar weapons. Europeans encountered gunpowder by the mid-thirteenth century, most likely because of Mongol-ruled Russia, and a century later both Mongols and Europeans had primitive cannon. Increased trade and cultural interactions allowed for more diffusion to take place.

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Southernization came from India, which was Hindu and Buddhist. Southernization didn't actually get rid of some religions or cultures. I'd say it spread culture and religion since it did help build empires with its new crops and technologies, such as gunpowder. Especially when the Han empire fell and China entered the warring states period.

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While plague is the only real downside, we talked about it in our session and brought up the positives of it too

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@Momina I agree that China was the center of the post-classical era. A lot of the most influential inventions like printing and gunpowder started in China and then later spread to the rest of the world. The Chinese also perfected the compass, which is still relevant today.

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Southernization was a positive thing that happened to the world but it brought upon negative outcomes too, it brought diseases like the bubonic plague, and rebellions from civilizations

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A bad thing about southernization and the increased contact between societies could be the increase in slave trade; the post-classical era saw the transition of enslaving people in eastern Europe and other areas to enslaving those in west and east Africa.  Slave trade had existed before Period 3, but beginning in this period did it start integrating Afro-Eurasia.