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Jaelana mentioning the boys crying out of relief for being free from the burden of taking care of themselves is an important detail that Golding included for a large purpose. This pans back to the whole book, throughout LOTF the only ones to cry are the little ones, the older boys especially Ralph crying at the end symbolizes a large change (The change is their whole way of thinking). I feel like the lines mentioning their crying highlights their ignored/repressed trauma. I also agree with Landon about the boys wanting freedom from rules and once they got it they realized it wasn't as good as they thought it would be. The deaths (Simon,Piggy,Marked boy), starvation, sickness(Stomach issues), injuries (scrapes and scratches) are all what they got in exchange for their freedom from societal rules.

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What I think is ironic about the end of the story is how the officer showed up and rescued them due to the smoke from the tribe trying to murder Ralph and not the fire which had a soul purpose for signaling any passing ships for rescue. What's also ironic about this scene is the submission to Ralph as the "boss" but a second ago he was an outsider that needed to die, but because it all worked out they recognized him as their true leader.

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I liked when Angelina talked about the kinds of governments. This made me think of Jack vs Ralph. Ralph represented the more democratic government, more similar to the British, while Jack was more of an Authoritarian government. Ralph just wanted to get home, and keep everything in order he was more in the idea of the perfect British boy in that way. But Jack was like the push back, wanting something different and steering toward a totally different life style. He also was in the choir, he was the leader of it, so he had power there, that made him a good British boy. He was proper, but maybe because he was "Perfect" this could be why he pushes back the idea of of living life similar to the way they do at home.

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Gabi mentioned a great point of how Ralph kinda didn't want to leave the island because of "a wise friend piggy". It shows how attached Ralph had gotten to Piggy which contrasts with the beginning of the story where Ralph didn't want anything to do with Piggy. It shows the theme of how you don't know how much you're connected to someone/thing until you loose them.

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There was a good point made about how at the very beginning of the book, Ralph did not care to ask Piggy his name and when Piggy asked for Ralph, but at the end Ralph realizes how important Piggy was and how much he needed him. Also, I think its interesting how all of the kids are crying at the end because after everything they've done and/or been through, they are just now showing how they are actually feeling. Gabby made a good point about how the boys could be crying because they have an attachment to the island and they don't want to leave because that means that they have no more freedom, or at least not as much as they had while on the island. In contrast, I like how Aiden talked about how Ralph wouldnt be attached to the island when he was the one who wanted get home the most.

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The boys are British boys which often in media are depicted as them being orderly and strong. Piggy represents the British ideal boy; he is commanding, strong willed, reasonable, and fair. The officer when he comes onto the beach sees the boys as losing their British side and remarks that the assumed good British boys would hold themselves together better. This take also is seen in Faiths point when she speaks on a new lens given to the boys because in our minds it is easy for us to picture them as being older then they are when they are truly only in elementary school. And that information brings it back to the point about British boys needing to be seen as one way and to be models. The officer couldn't bring himself to see the boys as savages because of predisposed notions about the boys.

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I loved how Faith connected the fact that the British are supposed to act a certain way with historical allegory, because in WW2 the British were a strong military force in the Allied power so they are held to a higher standard, but I also feel like the savagery of the kids also symbolizes the British in a way, because they are such a strong war power. During war's the most savage people are the one's with the most power and they don't hold back so I think Ralph could be symbolizing what the British government looks like to people from the outside, but without the Military power which Jack symbolizes they wouldn't be able to get to where they are.

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Another irony Angelena mentioned was how Great Britain was a more democratic government, but the most of the biguns were more driven towards an autocracy. It empathizes the theme morality because of how every human has some darkness and evilness that sits within them which causes them to act towards their desires instead of acting towards the right thing to do. It shows the result of not having order and law in a society.

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I agree with Aiden,Jaelana, & Faith about the boys representing British society as a whole. The boys being British is supposed represent reason and civilized society. I feel like Golding as a British man wanted to make sure that the British weren't excluded from his theme that all people as inheirently evil.

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The point about how the repeated idea of how British boys should act is ironic because throughout the book, due to the lack of order the boys forgot that stereotype because of isolation from civilization. It caused the boys, especially Jack and his tribe, to act opposite to what British boys are "supposed to act like.

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I think that when the officer arrived and asked who was in charge. The boys regained the lost hope that occurred during the story. This leads them to put trust back into their symbol of hope, Ralph. This is why no one objected when Ralph loudly said that he was the leader. For example, when the officer asked who is in charge Golding states how a little boy with red hair who's clearly Jack, stepped forward then changed his mind. Showing the instant shift in power of symbols with Ralph and the officer being symbols of civilization and hope and Jack being the symbol of savagery and chaos.

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I think that the point of the repetition of the idea that the boys are British shows what the boys should have acted like on the island. As was brought up in the inner circle, the British are supposed to be civilized, powerful, and smart. The repetition shows how the boys have gone from civilized, moral individuals to savages, and shows the dissolution of morals on the island.

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I liked the point about how they are young but no longer the kind of boys we picture when we think of children. They don't play in the sand and splash in the water, rather now they are playing in blood and fighting for their lives. The officer is also shocked when the boys acknowledge death, this is also somewhat shocking to the reader because up until this point the boys do not see death as being real. These pages highlight that the boys are not the same that they were when they got onto the island having been forced to grow up.

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I like what Fiona said when she mentioned the part of the text where it described Jack as a little boy. This gives him innocence and it gives us a different perspective of Jack. Throughout the book we see jack as a violent and strong figure, but this gives makes him up as more of a little boy. You almost treat jack as an adult when we are reading because of all of the things that he has done, it makes the reader notice just how young he really was. When being surrounded by a bunch of little kids he feels like he can do what ever he wants, but when the officer shows up, the whole tone of this section of the book changes because he no longer has power.

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I agree with what Ethan said about how when describing Jack as a little boy it shows how the officer sees him and it makes him seem powerless. He in real life it a a known thing that adults are older so you should respect them, and if we go to the beginning of the book, because there are no adults so they can do whatever they want, but now due to there being an adult the boys lose all there power an have to follow the adult. To go along with it the officer is viewing them as a joke because they are just kids.

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I feel like Ethan makes a good point when he says that it shows that Jack isn't taking care of them, but I feel like this shows how Jack is the leader, but he isn't really leading. Jack is more just, he lets the kids do what they want, and they don't see that he's not taking care of them. They ignore the things they need for the things they want, but they don't do anything to change it because it's more satisfaction.

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I agree with Ethan's statement about the perspective change describing Jack as a little boy. I feel like it really highlights what is going on throughout the book as a whole. As readers I feel like at times we forget that the boys trapped on the island are very young. The Navy officer addressing them as what they are really reins in the full picture. We knew that on the island little boys were fighting and killing each other but that was mostly subconciously. At the end of the book it really hits us that little boys, middle school aged at most just committed atrocities.

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At the end of the book, Jack seems afraid to step forward when asked for who the leader is, like he knows he is in the wrong if he chooses to step forward. The group as a whole seems innocent and doesn't really let on that anything bad was happening on the island, the only give away being the fire and the appearance of the boys. The seriousness of the situation arrives when the boys announce that there were two deaths on the island. Connecting back to my first point, I agree with Lannon when he talked about how Ralph regains power at the end when talking to the man who shows up because throughout a lot of the book, Lannon mentioned how Jack was slowly gaining more and more power by appealing to the boys wants and he got control of all of that power eventually. Jack backed down at the last minute out of fear maybe, and Ralph got all of the power back in a small moment.

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A good point made was how Ralph was the one actually trying to survive and take care of eveyrone. On the other hand, Jack was the "fun leader" showing his immaturity which caused his savagery.

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I liked the point that Jack was powerless by the end of the book. The emphasis on "little boy" and the idea that Jack let Ralph claim leadership shows that by the time the officer arrived Jack realized he was wrong and gave in to Ralph's power. It also shows that Jack is no longer able to do violent things on the island, because now there is an adult.

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I agree with lannon sort of because this shows that the officer still thinks they have their innocence. The officer comes from the outside world, but the island represents the people from the outside world. It shows a dramatic contrast between the two "worlds"

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I agree with Fiona when she talked about how when the offcer with actual authority finally found the boys, they refer to Jack as a "little boy" which shows his loss of authority and power due to the officer finding them. He realizes that their was no point in saying he was in charge since he wasn't

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I completely agree with Zach about how Piggy's death represented the end of society and reasoning, along with law and order. The paragraph right above where he quoted Jack, said "...the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist." The conch was what kept the boys in a somewhat fair democracy where people follow rules. However, with the conch essentially ceasing to exist, it's as if there was never order in the first place. This shows us that the boys have truly embraced their savagery with destruction of piggy and the conch

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Piggy throughout the story continued to state how he felt. This shows how his character stayed the same throughout. And he stood on his morals. According to page 180 William Golding states, "Piggy shouted again. "Which is better- to have rules and agree, or to hunt and kill.?" This shows he was really the last rational person that still had the intention of getting off the island. When he died the rationality and good ideas died as well. Also in this reading the Author describes the conch as "the white, magic shell" on page 180. Showing how much power it had and once It was broken it symbolized all order and any sense officially gone. This scene also shows how their savagery has gotten more intense. In the beginning they just told Piggy to shut up but this time they actually killed him.

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Fear brought the boys together and ripped them apart at moments. At first the little boys are scared of the darkness and the beast that the little boy thinks he saw. And this brought them together. This makes Piggy and Ralph create rules and order. They were driven by fear to create the fire to create a signal to get home. But fear also tore them apart. Jack used fear to make people join his group. The capturing of Samneric and the killing of piggy made the boys that joined feel obligated to stay for safety. Them staying blinded them to what they were doing because of what they were offered.

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I liked how Solae brought up the real life examples of fear in the world. Those examples brought up the memory of going through a pandemic in 2020-2021. Fear led to people deciding whether or not they would wear a mask, sanitize their groceries, and get vaccinated. People were scared of the unknowns of the Covid that it led to many irrational actions.

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With the death of Piggy Ralph was seen as losing his right hand man, the guy who had been in his corner from the very start. Piggy dying had a profound effect on showing how far they had fallen from civilization and their descent into savagery and a complete loss of innocence. With Ralph lost and without much help the only people really left with him, the twins, left and rejoined the much stronger and more savage group. This eventually led to the hunting of Ralph and the end of the entire book.

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In chapter 12 when Ralph was running in the fire; in his inner thoughts, the realization hit that he was truly alone and didn't have any guidance that he had been given throughout the novel. The loss of Piggy made Ralph lose hope.

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After Piggy's death the tone of the book was different, the things people in the text did after were less logical. They BURN DOWN THEIR FOOD SOURCE to find one boy who wasn't even going to be causing problems since he was literally just one guy. Since Piggy represents logic it makes sense that after the book is different in tone. The word choice is different too.

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Adding to what solae's saying, Golding not only using language like "painted indians" and "savages," but also Jack's tone throughout this passage and the way he talks to other kids is very aggressive, hostile, and authoritative. This shows how violent and irrational the tribe has become and their loss of reason.

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Piggies death really represents the death of all of the rest of reason, following with the hunt of Ralph, and burning of the island. His symbolic death completes the savagery, leading the savages to make emotional decisions. ex burning the island again and hunt for Ralph with the intent of killing him. These are both not rational decisions but the boys let their fear control them. "Loss of innocence" from piggies death causes really bad things to ultimately unfold AKA savagery.

After piggies death the language change is notable.

Longer dialog before piggies death, but after there is no reason, just action.

Ralph calls the other boys "the savages" in the ending sequence.

A hostile takeover leads to hate (Jack) and other bad decisions.

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I agree with Luri's and Zach's statements that fear brings people together. At the beginning, they united because they didn't know what to do. However, as the story progresses, and they adapt to the island, they begin to fear the beast more and more until they kill Simon. After Simon dies though, the beast seems to have less of an impact on the boys. And they become more divided as they become less scared of the beast. Furthermore, Ralph's group isn't scared of Jack's group, leading to their downfall. Piggy dies because he was recklessly shouting without contemplating the consequences. Samneric convert to Jack's group after Roger instills fear into them. "The yelling ceased, and Samneric lay looking up in a quiet terror." (pg 182) After this, Ralph is left alone and he is only afraid of death.

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I agree with Solae's statement about the effect of fear on people in real life. A situation that occurred in reality that goes along with this are the Salem Witch Trials. More specifically, in the Salem Witch Trials, the town believed in witches and began assuming some civilians of the town were witches. Fear of witches caused the townspeople to be violent and turn against each other. As a result, they executed those who they believed to be witches in order to keep themselves safe. Similarly, in the Lord of the Flies, Simon is mistaken as the beast, a non-existent being, resulting in his brutal death.

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In the story it can be seen that Ralph thinks about every one rather than jack thinking only of his desires. This represents the way that Jack's ways were more efficient in times of fear for the littluns.

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Differing from Solae's theme, I saw the theme of fear and it being a powerful force that can be used to manipulate and control individuals, which can lead to irrational behaviors and violence. Just like on page 159, Jack instills fear in his followers by adding the threat of being beaten. When Jack and his tribe beat Wilfred for no defined reason, the rest of the tribe is scared that they will be beaten so they follow Jack.

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On page 159 the text states that Jack is going to beat Wilfred despite him not doing anything. In real life dictators need to do something like beating someone up to show that they are better than the subjects.

Adding onto what the guy in the black jacket was saying, when the boys beat Simon to death he's saying things about how the beast isn't really a beast. People fear people with different thoughts/values from the norm so out of fear they turn on people with different thoughts. People are afraid of others in the minority or with differing values as can be seen in politics.

As an example Democrats and Republicans flock to eachother and alienate or put down the other group. It's not "I don't agree with Jhonny", it's "I don't agree with republicans/democrats."

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Golding uses fear to unravel reason, leading to destructive decisions and ultimately selfishness.

The beast is a metaphor for the internal fears within a person. As the novel progresses the beast becomes more prevalent and with that their fears increase, even after the evidence of the beast is gone (we know that Ralph saw the parachute get swept away because of what he tells the sailor on the beach at the end of the novel) their fears are too deep-set for them to do anything about them and they become consumed by thier fears.

The most overarching fear is the fear of the unknown, or the beast, increases as the novel goes on, from that first utterance of the beast early on by the littlens. The symbolic use of the beast really highlights how fear distorts reality and turns the unknown into a monster.(Simon's death and the chant, they didnt know what he was when he crawled out of the forest, but in the dance, consumed by fear, their reality distorted and Simon was really the beast in their own minds.

TLDR: Fear causes irrational decisions and unravels reason causing horrible acts, (the killing of simony, hunt of Ralph, dead scar kid etc...)

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I believe that their experience with fear is an individual endeavor as well as something that affected all of them at once. Fear drove them to make rash decisions and in turn split the group in half and made some of them almost go insane. Ultimately fear of the monster on the island caused them to separate, but also caused them all to become united under a blanket of comfort when it was thundering and raining. When they killed Simon they were under the comfort of fear and it caused them to make an uncomfortable decision and almost end up being okay with it.

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I agree with the fact that they did impulsive things out of fear and it skews their judgment and by doing this it makes them do bad things.The problem with the beast is that in my eyes Ralph didn't address the problem with the beast correctly which gave Jack the room to take control of the situation and escalate it in a dark manor.

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I agree with Nafisa's point regarding fear being the underlying factor of the boys action. I think fear played the most important role in LOTF. While fearing the beast, they were able to create a persona that people feared through their savagery. Which is ironic that they feared the beast when in reality they were the beast.

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I agree with Solae's thematic statement relating to fear. I think the boy's irrational transition from being on Ralph's "side" to Jack's tribe is because of their fear of the beast. Jack utilized the boys' fear of the beast and claimed to offer protection from the beast in order to gain their participation in his tribe. The boys' priorities changed from needing to be rescued to being safe from the beast. This fear of the beast caused the boys to irrationally join Jack and become barbaric and primitive like him.

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WHen abby talked about the people that walk away from omelas , she talked about the thoughts of the peopelthatwalk away wth how they are trting to break free from the norm, or the tatus quo, but she could have expaned on the idea that those people can be looked at as good for walking away but at the same time, those people arentdoing anythingto help the kidthats being neglected, so theyarent helpong solvethe problems which in the big picture doesnt seem like a problem. But to get rid ofsomethingyou cantjust walk away you also have to deal with the problem and full exterminate it to make sure it doesnt have a lingering affect.

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Building on Ava's point of someone having to bear a burden, like Piggy being hated and the child having to suffer, this is also apparent in Jon Krakauer's Into Thin Air but in a much more complex scenario. Because there had been so many groups partaking in a dangerous climb, there was a sense of responsibilities with every adult. And yet, there are arguments and cases between people to try and pin the blame on one person because the families of those who died can't feel full closure. But the pin can't be pinned on just one person, as they had all accepted the risk and chose to climb anyways while committing their own faults in the process.

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Adding on to the first comment of how morals are more likely to do bad things in a group, people rely on safety and the feelings of belonging or fitting in a certain group. They lose sight of what is the right decision and they focus more on what everyone else agrees and just agrees along with them.

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Aiden and Charlotte made some good point on how morality is an idea present in each book. But, there is also this idea of fear. For example, while climbing Everest, they fear the sickness and environmental problems that they would face, and when it did happen, it caused the whole group to fall apart, with many dying or injured. The timing to reach the mountain top was off, they separated themselves, and some characters did things for their own safety because they were scared. Same thing with Lord of the Flies. Many were scared of the beast, and that led to many savage and violent actions in Jack's group, like the death of Simon in chapter 9 and the sow hunt in Chapter 8. This all adds up to how fear can affect the idea of morality in different situations.

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I don't agree with Ava statements as Golding and Krauker live in two different time periods and with the boys, Golding portrays them as one savage unit lead by a leader that doesn't care for anyone else except for himself and the power that he can gain from it while Krauker portrays the expedition as one unit with different personalities and are willing to sacrifice for each other as seen with Rob Hall and Doug Hansen.

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Responding to charlet about how LOTF is also like Into thin air, also how in the book of LOTF ralph cries "we have rules," and how in into thin air, reflects this with people that veer off from helping peeople and only caring for themselfes like some of the climers on the south african sumit. ALos the she can add that even though a lot of people try to be selfish, that there are also people that try to help as in how Ralph wanted to keep everthing civil in LOTF but then the MAX Climbers from ITA helped out jon krakauers group when they where in need which helps connect LOTF and ITA with a aspect of goo and bad.

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To further Aiden's comment, just as the morals of the participants on Everest began to seemingly decline as they got further up the mountain, in Lord of the Flies the morals of the boys also began to decline as they developed savage practices due to their isolation from civilization. Additionally, because the ascension of Everest lead to more difficulties and danger, the climbers had to fend for themselves.They began to get more selfish and focused on their own priorities rather than helping others. This connects to Jack in Lord Of the Flies, as Jack focused on his own priorities, or what he thought matter most (hunting), connecting his selfishness to the selfishness of those ascending Everest.

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Adding to Esther's comment of how one is suffering for everyone's peace of mind in the Ones that walk away from Omelas, a great example of this would be the killing of Simon as killing Simon in Jack's mind was killing the beast and everyone else gain a peace of mind to it and we can see the death affects everyone else in Jack's group as well as Ralph and Piggy.

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One point that should be brought up is the difference in the conditions the characters of both stories had to go through. The boys on the islands gave in to their desires for savagery over time in a relatively safe environment over a long period of time, while the adults of Into Thin Air could only make decisions in response to the unstable and dangerous environment they were stuck in.

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Adding on to the comment of how danger plays a key role (made by Charlotte and the other person), In "Into Thin Air", it shows how they risk everything just to get the accomplishment or satisfaction of climbing the highest mountain. In "Lord of the flies", it shows how the boys (mainly Jack and his minions) know the danger of leaving the fire out for a rescue signal, yet they still continue to hunt and play around of this isolated island.

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On a Aidan's comment for comparing "Into Thin Air", they both share a common thread on the breakdown of societal norms and how moral conscious of humans degrade in certain situations. Although this is true, the actual breakdown of societal norms is faces in different conditions and represents different messages. Krakaur tries to show the degrading of human decision making and moral choices in dangerous situations while Golding shows human evil and exploring not so much moral choices but the moral indulgence in evil. The boys loses their sense of responsibility and indulge in a pleasure principle, while the characters in Into Thin Air lose their sense of responsibility and individual morals in face of pressure and sunk cost fallacy.

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Connecting to Aiden and Charlotte's comments, I also connect Lord of the Flies and Into Thin Air and their themes of morality. They show that long periods of isolation where survival is difficult, people must choose between mortality and selfishness. Krakauer focuses more on individual decisions where a person may have to give up their morals for survival. Golding focuses on society as a whole and sees morality as learned from society, rather than something innate.

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There was a connection of LOTF into ITA with power as well. When Jack and Ralph were at tension about who had greater power, it also kind of connects to ITA when there was tension about the coutnries who would gain power over Mt. Everest and how power would be distributed between the two countries.

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Response 1: Roger's change and the sow hunt

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Response 1: Roger's change and the sow hunt

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Roger changes how he acts. He becomes much more violent, and it even spreads into the group. Alesiah mentioned this, and I believe it's because he has the opportunity to be in a group. When in a group, they become more savage. For example, when chasing the sow, it says, "He giggled and flicked them while the boys laughed at his reeking palms... Robert stabilized the thing in a phrase that was received uproariously" (ch. 8, 135). They all laughed at such a violent act as a group, and Roger was a reason for this, even tho he seemed calm and tranquil in the beginning of the book.

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Adding to Charlotte analysis of the language of how the boys are getting more excited as the hunts goes on, the language also get harsher as the boys gets more and more violence. An example of this would be the dialogue "Right up her ass!", this example would show the descent into savagery and not thinking about anyone else and is only really living in the moment.

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Adding on to the comments made about how the language is portrayed, yes the language is very intense and more savage-like. It shows how they lose the innocent/ playful talk they all began with. In the text, it says, "Right up her ass!"(pg 135). This depicts that they (Jack mainly) are beginning to enjoy the feeling of killing something and almost makes it seem like a joke, rather than a serious matter.

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The sow hunt is an important reveal of the savagery that's present in the boys, as they kill the sow with unnecessary violence and feel a great thrill/excitement in doing so. This display of savagery is drawn out further with Roger's attempt to kill a piglet and the choice of beheading the pig and putting it on a spear. This would be an example of the descent from civility to savagery of the human mind when left isolated and uninfluenced by a surrounding society, as without the norms of society, the boys indulge in doing what would've been considered cruel.

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Adding onto the the Roger comment on Roger's "slow" behavioral descent into madness. The beach scene mentioned at the beginning showed his moral conscience at play when he couldn't threw the rocks at Henry, stating, "Roger's arm was conditioned by a civilization that knew nothing of him." Now here Roger is making jokes about killing a living thing, showing a contrast to the earlier him still constricted to moral bounds.

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Related to the growing violence in the choir boys, I noticed Jack and the hunters are described as shouting, fierce, and laughing. Aiden pointed out how Jack was playing with the blood and the boys were laughing, showing how this violence has not phased the boys. The pigs are shown to represent innocence, being described as shrieking, gasping, and frantic. This diction plays into themes of savagery through characterization and symbolism.

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Responding to Ava, The Sow Hunt contributes to the overall development of the text by revealing the true violence and savage nature of the boys coming out. The use of the words "bleeding and mad", "blood and terror", and "he stabbed down at the ground with his finger" emphasizes the violent nature of the boys evolving into their group. This will eventually lead to the boys accepting savagery into their practices, leading to not only the death of Simon, but also Piggy as described later on throughout the text.

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It foreshadows how Roger becomes very aggressive, like during Piggy's death