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#1 “Jefferson was a lifetime participant in an ancient system that made him the master of hundreds of people, over whom he had near absolute power. He could buy and sell human beings.’

What this reminded me of (which is only in a small way similar) is that I had students in 3rd grade who could not write their letters correctly, which was likely because they had missed the last half of kindergarten due to Covid 19.  When I spoke to the occupational therapist, he mentioned that by the time the kids were in 3rd grade, it was very hard to get them to change their writing, if not impossible.  How do we expect Jefferson to react in a system where he spent more than 3-4 years?  He spent his whole childhood and then adulthood with the system of enslaving people.  I don’t believe there was a way for him to shut that off instantaneously or even slowly wean himself off of ever, even though he understood it was an issue.

#2 -

Israel Gillette Jefferson wrote, “ Lafayette remarked that no man could rightfully hold ownership in his brotherman, that instead of all being free a portion were held in bondage, which seemed to grieve his noble heart.”  He then quoted the Marquis de Lafayette, who said, “I feel I must continue to press upon you how much I desire to see this plague cured before my death.”  To which Mr. Jefferson replied, “that he thought the time would come when the slaves would be free.”

I think this shows that Lafayette had probably spoken to Jefferson about the slavery issue and was a good enough friend to tell him how much it bothered him.  Jefferson’s reply lets us know that he was thinking about it, and he really did believe that a time would come when the enslaved would be freed.  I don’t think he thought it would take that long for freedom to happen. Jefferson did so many good things in his life, I don’t agree with enslavement however, he couldn’t solve everything in his lifetime.

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"So I think he saw it as something that would gradually - and that's the thing that trips us up - gradually end as people became more enlightened and learned more, that they would realize that slavery was a backwards institution, an institution from ancient times. I think he thought it was - just as we learn new scientific thoughts, just as we learn ways to make machines that are better - that the machinery of society would change, as well."

I like this quote because as problematic as it is to judge the past from our time, this attitude seems like what Jefferson would have thought.  Recently, I had a conversation with my dad about racism in today's world.  He is 78 years old and grew up in a small town where he did see crosses burned on people's lawns and although he didn't have a problem with African Americans, his father called them colored people (which he doesn't do now).  But, he was a teen in the 60's and remembers all the fears and troubles with the Cuban Missile Crisis and the integration of schools.  He said," I really didn't have much to do with African American people so I didn't make it my business to get involved".  I told him that my experience in high school was that we had only a few minorities who even attended my high school and so I never felt that racism was an issue and I thought it was more of a generational issue or maybe a southern issue.  Now that I am older and have had more experience and education living and traveling around the United States and through-out the world, I have realized that ignorance to an issue is a sad state to be in.  So many problems could be solved more quickly if more people stepped in to help and involve themselves, even if they don't have a particularly personal connection to the issue.  We are a community.  We are a society.  What ails one part of the society affects the whole. Sometimes we have to pick and choose what needs the biggest share of our attention, but we can always contribute to kindness, acceptance, tolerance and equality. --Melinda Nordahl

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 especially true of those older than 75 who lived during the civil rights era. I am grateful for the things that have changed, but it saddens me to witness that much still has not.--Michelle Powell
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Anonymous 4h
Broderick Grimshaw - When I saw the marriage date I was blown away! That was only 53 years ago! It is stunning how little time has passed and how quickly the ideas of equality has spread.
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"...And that's one of the things you have to do when you're writing history is whatever you would want people to do, they may not think about things in the same way. So family and her history with Jefferson, not just the two of them but his relations with her mother and her brothers and all of these people, likely colored the way she considered making this decision."

I think this quote really highlights a big challenge when studying history. It is easy for us to view the actions of historical figures (both the good and the bad) and be confused by their actions. We have the benefiet of our modern lense therough which we can view the past, but the people of the time do not know they were figures of history. That was their present, just like was discussed in the McCullough article.

"He sees himself buying clothes for James, paying James a full salary in France and continuing to do so when they come back to the United States. Treating them in a different sort of way, he sees himself as a good - quote-unquote - "good and benevolent" master. Now, we balk at that - and rightfully so - but he saw himself as doing slavery in the right way, if it had to be done. And once you start to acquiesce or think of yourself as a good slave owner, I think the urgency about ending slavery dissipates."

I thought this quote was a great summary of how the founding members of our nation, a place built for freedom and radical (for its time) independence justified the use of slaves. The role of "Patriarch" was not just a position of power, but of responsibility. I think this mindset is also what kept (and in some ways still keeps) inequality between genders prevalent for so long. The idea that being a "benevolent" master and fulfilling your "duty" as patriarch made the (what we now consider disgraceful) inequality seem noble and just.

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".....do some of the contradictions that he struggled with and perhaps ignored or rationalized, are they still alive with us today?

GORDON-REED: Oh, I think they're very much alive. The fascinating thing about Jefferson is that, in some ways, he embodies the country. I mean, the struggles that were within him"  This part of the conversation stood out to me because I see a huge increase (or maybe I am just more aware) of the divisiveness in our country today. Everytime I turn around I see people rationalizing their awful behavior toward one another. I have a very hard time with people who are seemingly hypocritical when it comes to their words and actions.

"So, you know, it's a tragic story in a lot of ways, but I think it's not surprising given human nature. We don't always do what we think or we know is the right thing to do." When others look back at our choices will they think the same of us? I can now partially understand why our elementary level text books conveniently leave most of these details of human nature and weakness of character. It is difficult for me, as an adult, to reconcile a story about anyone that I believe to be a "great" person doing things that are in my judgement,  abhorrent. I can't imagine trying to teach my 5th graders to see both sides of these issues. By the same token, are we doing them a disservice by not giving them the opportunity to see things through a different lens?

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Gordon-Reed: "...I think in all of us there are things that we know are wrong, and because of our other preoccupations, we say, well, that thing will take care of itself. Somebody else will figure that out.  That's for someone else to deal with.  Even though we know that , you know, we could make a contribution.  So yeah, looking at him makes you thing about yourself as well."
She is right.  We all know of things that are not right and yet we don't do anything about it....whether that be by choice, need or unintentional compliance.  I believe Jefferson had to have had some sort of knowledge that he was stuck in the middle between his beliefs and his lifestyle efforts.

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Vedantam: "There's something deeply ironic about this, isn't there?  I mean, you have these two people who are speaking about high ideals and about the importance of equality, and they are being driven around by somebody who is a slave.  And you look at this, and you say, how can you not see what is happening?"
This is another example of the struggle I feel about Thomas Jefferson's choices. In context, I understand he wanted to be a great master who treated his enslaved better than others may have, yet he was still keeping them from living a "free life". What was the right thing to do? Continue with the norm of having human property because it was the way of life or fight for the human right to be free? I see both sides (in context) yet can't help but wonder if Jefferson had any internal battles about this.

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Quote #1 "I imagine, 100 years from now, people are going to look back (laughter) at certain things that we do and say, why didn't people understand? You know, why didn't people do something? And there are a lot of things - there are a lot of times human beings don't act according to what they know is the right thing to do."
I like this quote as I think it helps put into context the lives of those who have come before us. It helps us remember that they did not live their lives with our perspectives. I do feel that there will be many common practices now that will be viewed in the future as things that were obviously not the best choice.

Quote #2 - "I think from the distance of history, we can say, this could have happened, and that could have happened. But I don't think realistically that could have happened. Slavery was going to end the way it ended. No one has given me a convincing scenario how, in the United States, people could have just voted slavery out without a real, real fight. Sure, he could have worked for that. But if he had given his life to that, we would not be sitting here talking about him, I don't believe. "

This quote reinforces quote #1 about choices made in the present not always being viewed as the best choice in the future. It is impossible to know what would have happened if Jefferson had made different choices in his life. Had he been openly opposed slavery in his time, he may have been viewed as a radical and may not have held the position he did in society. This could have altered the outcome of many things.  He may have never accomplished the things that he did which contributed to the establishment of our nation.

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"....think about the institution of slavery, you think about it in economic terms or political terms. You don't really think about it in terms of these family relationships, which may have been every bit as important in keeping the system intact as the economic and political advantages that slavery conferred on some people."

This quote stuck out to me, as it illustrates the fact that slavery is about more than an economic or political issue. When people both in the past and present try to place slavery into one of these theoritical boxes, they have to carefully exclude certain facts or aspects of this institution. This means that the picture of slavery is very limited and even skewed to one historical perspective or the other. This is not true historical study, which to gain as true and clear a picture as possible of what happened in the past.

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"Slavery was not just an economic system. It was a system of social control. What do you do with black Virginians when they are emancipated? How do they fit into society?"

This screamed to me as slavery not only controlled what enslaved African Americans could do but also the freed black community of Virginia was so limited, especially after Bacon's Rebellion. This in its self is something students truly need to understand. Chattel slavery is a form of social control in the Early Modern period and it evolved over time as morality came more and more into it.

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“Even as he became a slaveholder, Jefferson also thought of himself as being an educated and cultured man. He read voraciously. He loved music. He considered himself to be a man of science and reason.”

My students are currently learning about the Civil War and some continue to refer to the South as the “bad guys”. This quote helps explain that during this time period, even the educated and well known had slaves because this was common during the time. Slave owners did not think of themselves or see themselves as the “bad guys”. In our present we know slavery is wrong, but during Jefferson’s present it was a norm. 

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Quote #1 "You could say that [Jefferson was a hypocrite], but I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people...have an intellectual belief about something, but don't have the will to act upon those beliefs."  I really liked this because it's so hard to look at history through the lens of modern times.  One of the things I always struggle with his helping kids understand things in the context of the time period.  I liked how she said we do the same things now.

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Quote #1 "You could say that [Jefferson was a hypocrite], but I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people...have an intellectual belief about something, but don't have the will to act upon those beliefs."  I really liked this because it's so hard to look at history through the lens of modern times.  One of the things I always struggle with his helping kids understand things in the context of the time period.  I liked how she said we do the same things now.

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Quote #2 "...that was sort of a dilemma that many enslaved people faced.  Do you run away and have freedom by yourself or do you stay and stick it out with your family?"  This is another time that it is really hard to judge people of the past and their situations by modern standards.  I wonder how people could leave their families like that, and yet, they also knew someone could be sold and divide their families at any given time.  I also don't understand how difficult it would have been living in those conditions.

Quote #3 "[Jefferson] saw himself as doing slavery in the right way...]  This goes back to the intellectual hypocrisy we all deal with on one level or another.  We have to justify to ourselves that we are making the best of a bad situation.

Kim Dennis

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Quote #1 "For man is an imitating Animal"
This quote was one that was stated right towards the beginning of the podcast and frankly i feel could not be more accurate. As we look at all the past political social movements, the people involved that they are working against many times don't have scientific reasoning but use the claim that tradition is more than enough reason to continue. We see that this behavior is still present in our existing society and many times leads to the same unrelenting biased behavior.

Quote #2 "When we have an intellectual belief but not the will to act on that belief."
The reason i selected this quote is because of its connection to the first one. As we look at the proponents of change throughout history we see men and women speaking up for what we believe in. Myself and my students included many times ask, "were they really the only ones at the time who asked these kinds of questions?" Personally I believe that the answer is no. Many times there are some who are thinking the same thing and even an occasional few who are attempting to act on it but we only see the actions of those successful few who make a legacy throughout history.

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An African American woman was the one interviewed to cover this subject.  It was unexpected and appreciated.

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I was familiar with this story from reading the historical fiction novel, "America's First Daughter," told from the perspective of Jefferson's daughter whom was about the same age as Sally Hemmings. If find it fascinating that she is Jefferson's wife's half sister. It leads me to consider that he missed his wife very much and turned to her half sister to continue that relationship. I love the complexity of this relationship in making a situation more real, complex, and not easily unraveled by simple hind sight. I have a copy of a children's book related to the topic in my 5th grade reading library.

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I found that "the age of consent was raised from 10 to 12" years of age for a woman shocking.  This just highlights how important finding details to better understand context is.

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Quote #2
The American Revolution was the most important thing in his life. And the tragedy is he couldn't see that, after the union is formed, that the thing that would split it apart would be the institution of slavery.
I like this quote because to our Founding Fathers the American Revolution was very important but some of the ideals they stood for such as "All men are created equal" they did not give that right to the slaves. This needed to be corrected in order for our country to survive and become a great nation.

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I imagine, 100 years from now, people are going to look back  at certain things that we do and say, why didn't people understand? You know, why didn't people do something? And there are a lot of things - there are a lot of times human beings don't act according to what they know is the right thing to do
This thought or quote really hits me, I think about how we do look back on history and wonder why they did not correct the things they did we feel were wrong. We don't stop to think how we will look to generations a 100 years from now about some of the issues we have and things we are doing. That we should have fixed but we didn't or thought someone else can,, for instance abortion,. Some feel it is not moral and some feel it is, that is something we are trying to correct right now.

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Quote #2 "Slavery was not just an economic system. It was a system of social control. What do you do with black Virginians when they are emancipated? How do they fit into society? I just don't think he could see what a sort of real plan - a realistic plan for what to do about it. And that's something that we grapple with in lots of areas - believing one thing but not having the strength to do something about it or to actually make that idea come to fruition if you have the shot."

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Quote #2 "Slavery was not just an economic system. It was a system of social control. What do you do with black Virginians when they are emancipated? How do they fit into society? I just don't think he could see what a sort of real plan - a realistic plan for what to do about it. And that's something that we grapple with in lots of areas - believing one thing but not having the strength to do something about it or to actually make that idea come to fruition if you have the shot."

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I think this was a very interesting part in the podcast because we are trying to understand why Jefferson didn't put a stop to slavery even when he knew it was wrong. And I think this explanation makes sense. It's possible that Jefferson felt really bad about the institution of slavery and that's why he treated his slaves differently, but still, he found joy or maybe satisfaction in the institution as well and so he couldn't quite bring himself to really give it up or push for it to end. -Brianne Catchatoorian

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An interesting concept brought out in the podcast was done by Gordon-Reed. "But Jefferson developed the idea that using incentives would be a better way to get people to do things than to whip them. . . . So this notion of incentives versus punishment or whipping was something that became a part of his way of making himself a, quote-unquote, "better" slaveholder." From what I have read and studied, most slave holders ruled in fear. The whip and other tortures were used in excess that would cause fear in others. This notion of using incentives is an interesting attitude for the time. I wonder how well it truly worked? I also wonder if others used similar methods to show appreciation toward their slaves? -Glen Mower

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#1  "VEDANTAM: There are people who argue that judging historical figures through the lens of modern values and morals, that it just doesn't work, that, in some ways, our modern notions about racism simply cannot be overlaid onto people living in the 18th and 19th century."

It is easy for us to judge the beliefs and views of figures of the past and their actions based on our beliefs of today, but we weren't living in their time and thinking their thoughts.  I believe that Jefferson truly felt that "all men are created equal," but may not have had the ability to fight the institution of slavery that existed in the colonies and our fledgling nation.

#2  "VEDANTAM: And Jefferson was a great believer in progress and things being better in the future than they were in the present.

GORDON-REED: Absolutely. And that's part of - that's a strength and a weakness. Some people say the optimism was almost too great. But he definitely thought that mankind and society would get better and better."

Jefferson's optimism and outlook on humanity was somewhat idealistic. Considering himself an "adherent to the Enlightenment” he felt that people would come to realize that slavery was wrong.  I think that we strive as humans to improve on where we are at.  We each have unique talents that lend ourselves to the notion that we will strive to get better at the areas we are feel we can enact change. I think Jefferson worked in the areas he felt he had the most likelihood for success of change and had great hope that humanity would figure out that slavery was wrong.

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Quote #1 "A hundred years from now people are going to look back at the things we do, and say, "why didn't people understand? Why didn't people do something?" A lot of times human beings don't act even though they know what's the right thing to do. 

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Quote #1 "A hundred years from now people are going to look back at the things we do, and say, "why didn't people understand? Why didn't people do something?" A lot of times human beings don't act even though they know what's the right thing to do. 

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I thought this was very introspective because I was trying to think about things going on in our day that people really might look back on and think, "Why did they do that? What were they thinking?" I thought about current topics such as the debate on gun control or abortion and how in years from now people might look at us and our decisions or how we argued over these things and wonder at why we debated so long over these issues, no matter which way it turns out. I think this idea of us not always acting as we should is something that couldn't maybe help kids wrap their minds around why slavery wasn't so easily gotten rid of. It doesn't justify it but maybe it can offer one tiny perspective of maybe why it wasn't abolished sooner. -Brianne Catchatoorian

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Quote #1 "100 years from now, people are going to look back at certain things that we do and say, why didn't people understand? You know, why didn't people do something?"
This quote makes me think about my own decision. Often when I study the past and make comments about it, I wonder what comments will be made about our time. It make me think that I need to stand up for what I believe what is right. Even if future generations disagree with what I do. I think it is better than be a bystander and letting injustices being perpetrated.  Hopefully future generations agree with me.
Quote #2 "I think history is a moral profession."
History needs to be viewed through a moral lens. We look back and study human nature to understand what caused people to act the way they did. We can ask what values were taught, what were the expectation, and how what was societal structure of the time. If we understand the past and why things happen the way they did, we can better understand our times and figure out why things are happening the way they are now. If we just study the past and shrug our shoulders and say "That is just the way it was," we will get nothing truly meaningful out of it.

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The first quote that was of interest to me was, "So I don't think it's enough to just say we can't judge people in the past because I- judge may be too strong a word. You can certainly comment on, you can certainly point out the contradictions, you can point out the differences, the vast, you know, distance between what people in the past thought and what we think."  This quote was a reminder to be of what happens in professional sports. There is a great argument, especially, in basketball about the greatest players of all time and could the replicate what they have done in other time periods. The basis of all these types of decisions are hypothetical. When we look back at historical figures, I have the same feelings. How can we judge them for what they did during their time period? This article really hit home about sports. -Glen Mower

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It's a question many of us ask, how would the stars of yesteryear do in the NBA now? Would Jordan be as dominant now? The basketball of today is pretty different to that of the '80s and '90s. Which itself was completely different from the way the game was played during the '50s and '60s. We're looking at why it's silly to compare eras at all.

Are new players better?

There is an argument that the modern players are just better than those of the past. Athletes continue to get quicker, stronger, and more durable than ever. Then there are improvements in fitness attitude as well as the increasing importance of sports science.

The players' entire lives are mapped out for them, down to the times they should eat for maximum performance and the downtime for practice they have to recover. High school basketball is better than ever, which is making the players coming through are a level above what came before them.

Hypotheticals

Of course, it's fair to say if the players of the past had access to the lives we do now they too could have been just as good as the current top players. It's all hypothetical, but the only fair debate would be to make the conditions the same for all players throughout the history of the NBA, an impossible task. Players now play to a different rule set that has developed over years of trial and error. The game is as fast as it has ever been while the level of skill is through the roof.

Respecting the era

The players who stood out in history have to be taken at face value. They could only compete against what the league had to offer, so it's not their fault if the competition wasn't necessarily as good as it is now. Shaq could dominate players who were supposed to be on his level during his career. Transport Shaq back to the '60s and he could arguably have at least another few thousand points on top of his career total.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the all-time top scorer in NBA history, but would he be able to score that many again if his career was to start tomorrow? Possibly not as the standards are higher, but that doesn't mean we should disregard his accomplishments.

Comparisons

Perhaps the fairest way to compare different eras is to say who in the current game is most like a star of the past. The greatest of all-time Michael Jordan was a once in a lifetime player, but some were similar. Kobe Bryant pretty much based his game on the legendary star and is as close to Jordan that we've seen. Current stars such as Kawhi Leonard and DeMar DeRozan are arguably as close to the legend that we have in today's NBA.

It's hard to compare past eras in the NBA to the current generation of players as the levels are completely different. With rule changes and increases in fitness, the sport is almost completely different then to what we see today.

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Why it's silly to compare different eras in the NBA - Sports Retriever

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It's a question many of us ask, how would the stars of yesteryear do in the NBA now? Would Jordan be as dominant now? The basketball of today is pretty different to that of the '80s and '90s. Which itself was completely different from the way the game was played during the '50s and '60s.

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Quote #1
I am apt to despair, yet I see not how our generation is to disengage itself from this deplorable entanglement.

I think this is a great reminder that though people may see something such as slavery as a bad thing they may not have the ability to change it  at that time and that the people in general may not be ready for a change that needs to happen. Perhaps fighting that battle at the time the nation was formed would have been fatal to the new country.

Quote #2
...I think in all of us there are things we know are wrong, and because of our other preoccupations, we say, well that thing will take care of itself.
Somebody else will figure it out. That's for someone else to deal with.

I'm pretty sure I like this quote because I've thought this way about things from time to time and so it's comforting to me that I'm not the only one that thinks that. But in some cases I think someone else might be better at solving certain things. Or I could be just justifying not taking action :)

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Quote 1: “ There are things that we know are wrong but because of our other preoccupations we say, ‘Somebody else will figure that out.’ ‘That's for someone else to deal with.’ Even though we know we could make a contribution.” I feel like this is my excuse for everything in my life that I don’t complete. Those other preoccupations tend to take over your life. But by stepping aside and allowing someone else to make those decisions for us we are taking away our own rights. We are then being acted upon instead of acting. I know I need to make more contributions and this article and specifically this quote were a good reminder of that.

Quote 2: “I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical in the way that All of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something but we don’t have the will to act upon those beliefs.” This quote is in the same vein as the previous one for me. I think about our planet. I know that we need to treat our Earth better if we want it to last. Yet I'm over her not recycling, driving alone to work, leaving lights and water on. I guess I just don't want to look back and think I could have done better because I knew better. I wonder when listening to this did Jefferson die wondering if he could have done better as well because he knew better.

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Tamara Henderson - This podcast has given me a greater appreciation for Jefferson.  It is crucial that we comment on history using the lens of the time.  I liked what she said that he used his talents to do what he knew he could accomplish.  As much as we'd have liked him to go further, the moment was not right and would have cost the country in other ways had he used his political capital to take on slavery at the time.

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Tamara Henderson - This podcast has given me a greater appreciation for Jefferson.  It is crucial that we comment on history using the lens of the time.  I liked what she said that he used his talents to do what he knew he could accomplish.  As much as we'd have liked him to go further, the moment was not right and would have cost the country in other ways had he used his political capital to take on slavery at the time.

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I have always hoped that Jefferson and Sally had a relationship and that it wasn't 🤬.  It certainly sounds like from her research that it may have been a bonafide  relationship.  It was interesting when she pointed out that at the time, a white wife couldn't withhold consent either.  It certainly has taken far too long for things to change--even as they still aren't perfect.

I also liked that he apparently stumbled upon the idea that incentives work better than corporal punishment.  It hasn't been but in the last several decades that conventional wisdom has changed on that regarding child rearing.

I also liked what she said about drawing a distinction between the enduring ideals of Washington and Jefferson versus the ideals of Stonewall Jackson. Something to ponder. . . .

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Stephanie Findlay--I found this podcast very interesting. I appreciated  that it did not give me my opinion, but allowed me to form my own opinion or ponder about this topic. 

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Stephanie Findlay--I found this podcast very interesting. I appreciated  that it did not give me my opinion, but allowed me to form my own opinion or ponder about this topic. 

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There was a portion during the discussion that spoke about believing and knowing something, but not having the strength overcome it or doing something about it. I can understand and relate to these statements. With Thomas Jefferson it was slavery, with others it might be exercising, or eating healthy. You know what you should do, but you find it hard to do it.

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I loved this podcast.  Several of my colleagues have had discussions along these lines over the years.  The best thing that is brought up is towards the end when it is brought up that the revolution was what Jefferson’s life was really about.  Yes, he had the talent to do more with ideals about ending slavery, but it wasn’t the time.  That was his own opinion and feeling.  He was aware of the political climate of his time and the lifestyle and opinions of Virginians and Southerners in general and slavery was not something that was ever going to just be persuaded or rallied against.  It was going to take a fight.  I agree that had the abolishment of slavery been his next big project, he wouldn’t have made it to president and would not be as significant in history.  It’s hard to actually articulate because I wish it could have been different.  I would have liked to have seen him make a bigger stance and effect in that realm, but my understanding of history and any big civil rights type of movement tells me that it simple couldn’t have been different.  However, it makes me realize that I need my own revolution movement that defines my life and I don’t have that yet.  Maybe it’s redefining education.
Melinda Jotdahl

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"I began to think about how important family would have been to someone like that, a 16-year-old female raised to believe that she had some special connection to family, in a way, to think about family, think about your mother is back in Virginia. Her sisters and brothers were there. So that would be an impetus. I mean, that was sort of a dilemma that many enslaved people faced. Do you run away and have freedom by yourself or do you stay and stick it out with your family?"

This was the quote given when asked why Sally would have given up her freedom in France and still returned with Jefferson. I wondered the same thing when listening to the podcast, and think I agree with this conclusion. He goes on to discuss how this connection would have warped her thinking.  The whole scenario feels unfair and heartbreaking that one would even have to make such a decision.

"He sees himself buying clothes for James, paying James a full salary in France and continuing to do so when they come back to the United States. Treating them in a different sort of way, he sees himself as a good - quote-unquote - "good and benevolent" master. Now, we balk at that - and rightfully so - but he saw himself as doing slavery in the right way, if it had to be done. And once you start to acquiesce or think of yourself as a good slave owner, I think the urgency about ending slavery dissipates."

I think this quote should have us all thinking about the things we do in our day to day lives that we incorrectly justify. There are many things in my life that I feel I could do better, but don't even attempt to because in comparison to others my age it feels like I am doing just fine. This quote made me contemplate those things and even formulate a plan to do better.

Stacie Blake

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This podcast was very eye opening for me. There were a lot of details that were discussed throughout that really made me begin to think about things. My opinion of Thomas Jefferson changed as a listened. It was very very interesting!

The first quote that stuck out to me was "Sally Hemings- Sarah, nicknamed Sally- was sister to Robert and James." It then goes on to mention that she became pregnant by Jefferson, and she wanted to stay in France. By the time Jefferson thinks that he wants to come home, she wanted to stay." I've heard of Sally before, but I never knew the full story and many details that surrounded her time with Jefferson. While she was in France she was essentially, free. At the time she grappled with going back to Virginia, where she would be a slave once again. This was really interesting to me, because she had to think about and understand the risks of doing this. She still had family in Virginia and this was most certainly a dilemma for her at the time. It doesn't sound so interesting, but I think about a 16 year old child (then considered an adult) having to make a tough decision that could potentially change her life in many ways. Upon her return to Virginia, he fathered 6 of her children. How would her life have been different? Would it have been better, or worse? Very interesting, in my opinion.

The second quote that stood out to me was "Much of his learning taught him that slavery was a terrible institution, but slavery was also, as we've discovered, essential to his way of life." It went on to say that "The difference between them and Jefferson is that they never came to the conclusion that slavery was wrong." I found this part of the podcast interesting. It's true that during that time slavery was a way for people to have their plantations and families taken care of. It was something that a lot of people question about Jefferson. Even a comment about whether or not Jefferson was a hypocrite came up.

With that, this podcast was fascinating and really brought to light a lot of details about Thomas Jefferson that I was unaware of.

Alexis Van Etten Wilden

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I enjoyed listening to this podcast because it really made me think a little more critically at Thomas Jefferson and his importance in a historical, cultural, and traditional context. One quote that stood out to me while listening to this podcast because it humanized Jefferson rubbed me the wrong way was, “Well, he (Jefferson) basically lived the life of a planter.” I disagree with this statement. I understand that Jefferson is a farmer, and I’m aware of his beliefs in wanting to keep the United States as an agricultural nation rather than it becoming industrialized, but you cannot equate someone with extreme influence in society as a white, educated male, with enslaved peoples who are stripped of their rights. The podcast clarified the interactions he had with his slaves, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that he was part of the problem.  That brings me to the next quote that also shocked me. “...I think most of us - at least laypeople - think about the institution of slavery, you think about it in economic terms. You don’t really think about it in terms of these family relationships.” I understand Jefferson’s courage, especially at this time, in securing the freedom for his children once he died, and how he treated members of his family, and his slaves, with humanity.  But there were many more masters that had children with their slaves, and still sold them. We cannot blanket hundreds of instances of family separation, with the righteous act of an influential American. I admire Jefferson and this podcast made me look a little more critically at him - but as is common with all history, everyone can look at one character, event, or hypothetical based on their own perspective of experiences or interactions they’ve had. - Juan Patino Rodriguez

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A few things that I find interesting while listening to this podcast.
I was surprised to learn that 10 years old at that time was the age of consent. YIKES!
I knew this previously about his relationship with one of his slaves, but I never quite connected the dots of them being a family unit.  I was very ignorant in this, I didn't realize that this relationship was a long term relationship.   I found it quite interesting that he had and was managing two families and this was not frowned upon or looked upon as a bad thing.
Listening to the podcast helped me to see how the thinking was in the days of Thomas Jefferson.  I also realized that even then, there was a rationalizing of bad behavior, in this case owning slaves.
-Angela Nadauld

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These are the quotes that I found interesting from the podcast about Thomas Jefferson.
"Our children see this, and learn to imitate it."
I found this quote to be very interesting because I see this all the time in my role of a teacher in a classroom.  The longer I am in the classroom, the more I am convinced that the singe biggest factor in student's lives is the environment they are growing up.  I believe that it take an exceptional person to rise above the circumstances they grow up in.  I think slavery in the South was very much like this.  People did not question it and accepted it, even though it was wrong to so many outside of that environment. Even an intellectual giant like Jefferson could not see past himself being a slave owner.

"Whatever you want people to do in history, they may not see it the same way as you."
The historian on the podcast (I can't remember her name) said this. I think this is very much a true statement.  It is hard for students in my classroom to understand why people thought slavery was okay. I love this type of contextual thinking.  I am by nature an optimist, and believe that people are doing the best they can with what they have.  I would like to believe this is the case with Jefferson.  There are so many admirable qualities in him, it is hard to justify the contradictions he had in his life.

"Jefferson sees himself as a good and benevolent master."
I have found myself having a little bit of this mindset in the classroom.  I am nice to students and try hard to help them succeed, but am I really doing everything I can to make them successful.  I think it eased Jefferson's conscience to think that he was good to his slaves.  It would have been really interesting to know what Jefferson's slaves thought of him.

Mark Womack

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Jefferson and the duality of the human race

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Jefferson and the duality of the human race

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These types of lessons about our founding fathers and the most important people in history are valuable but also dangerous.   For a fully (brain) developed adult who understands the magnitude of the life of Thomas Jefferson I think learning it all is much more pertinent to the attempt at understanding their lives.  My 8th grade US History students don't have a great enough depth and appreciation (yet) for people like Jefferson.  It is my opinion that we can incriminate our heroes of the past long before we've established the heroism of what they did and who they were.  I can't tell you how many 13 year olds learned too early that Jefferson fathered his slaves' children but wouldn't be able to tell you much else about the most important things he did, e.g. wrote the Declaration of Independence, became President, Louisiana Purchase, etc.  Listening to the podcast help me appreciate more the attempt we make in commenting on the past in a fair and realistic way.  The author of the book is careful about how she states that historians have to "judge" the morality of the past but not necessarily in a sweeping generalized way.  It's wonderful to me there were people who were forward thinkers that knew slavery was wrong and wanted it to end long before it actually did.  I agree with the notion that Jefferson felt like he had made his mark and deferred to future generations to end slavery.  There is a limit that we as humans place on ourselves and once we have done good sometimes we feel that good is enough.  Hopefully we can teach our students and also learn ourselves there is no limit to how much difference we can make in the world if we're dedicated to our causes.   My history professor in college taught us that every person is faced with choosing between virtue and self-interest in many instances in their lives.  I think Jefferson was an incredible person and changed the world forever but not every decision he made was virtuous because he was human!

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I enjoyed this podcast. It was very interesting and I loved the story was from an African American woman's point of view.

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I enjoyed this podcast. It was very interesting and I loved the story was from an African American woman's point of view.

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I liked when she was asked about her opinion of taking down statues of the confederacy and she said they tried to break the United States and they shouldn't be compared with people like Jefferson and Washington.

Another discussion that was very eye opening to me was when she talked about Jefferson could not marry his enslaved mistress and whites could not marry blacks in Virginia until 1967! That wasn't too long before I was born. A lot has changed yet it hasn't. I have an African American daughter who is dating a Caucasian boy and they get dirty looks and people make comments to them all the time.

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In the listening and reading I was struck by the way that Jefferson’s view on Slavery and actions associated with Slavery changed based on who he was around and where he was. The example of how he treated his slaves when in France showed that he was adaptable and knew that the cultural view that supported slavery was changing and that as such he would have to adapt or risk losing his slaves. Another instance of this was as he was talking to Lafayette and stated that the time hadn’t come, and the conditions weren’t right to be able to successfully free the slaves. What really hit home was when it was stated that, “We don’t always do the things that we know are the right things to do”. This, to me, encapsulates so many people, not just in that time period, but now. Often we chose to effect change in something that is meaningful to us and allow ourselves to be busied by the smaller cares when it comes to large ideas that we either view as too large, or something that would not be beneficial enough to us.
Sergio Macias