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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." These words, penned by Thomas Jefferson more than 240 years ago, continue to inspire many Americans.

And yet these very same words - affirming the equality and dignity of all - were written by a man who owned hundreds of slaves, and fathered six children by an enslaved woman, Sally Hemings.

For historian Annette Gordon-Reed, the contradictions embedded in Jefferson's life are "a window into us, into who we are as Americans."

"The fascinating thing about Jefferson is that he, in some ways, embodies the country," she says. "A lot of Jefferson's contradictions are alive in us. I don't think there's anybody in the founding generation who embodies that so well... and that's what makes him a subject that we can't really, I think, do without."

This week on Hidden Brain, we take a deep dive into history as a window into psychology. We look closely at the life and beliefs of a man who helped shape the modern United States - and ask how his complexities and contradictions have echoes in our own lives.
Additional Reading:
1) Much of our conversation in this episode drew from material in Most Blessed of the Patriarchs: Thomas Jefferson and the Empire of the Imaginationby Annette Gordon-Reed and Peter S. Onuf.

2) "Engaging Jefferson: Blacks and the Founding Father" by Annette Gordon Reed, The William and Mary Quarterly.

3) The Hemingses of Monticelloby Annette Gordon-Reed

Hidden Brain is hosted by Shankar Vedantam and produced by Jennifer Schmidt, Parth Shah, Rhaina Cohen, Thomas Lu, and Laura Kwerel. Our supervising producer is Tara Boyle. Camila Vargas-Restrepo is our intern. You can also follow us on Twitter @hiddenbrain, and listen for Hidden Brain stories each week on your local public radio station.

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A Founding Contradiction: Thomas Jefferson's Stance On Slavery

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." These words, penned by Thomas Jefferson more than 240 years ago, continue to inspire many Americans. And yet they were written by a man who owned hundreds of slaves, and fathered six children by an enslaved woman.

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“Lafayette remarked that no man could rightfully hold ownership in his brotherman, that instead of all being free a portion were held in bondage, which seemed to grieve his noble heart. I feel I must continue to press upon you how much I desire to see this plague cured before my death.”

Lafayette is so awesome. How could I not include this quote?  I often get upset when I hear “oh that’s how everyone thought” in regards to slavery. I think it is remarkable that even a nobleman during this time period understood the cruelty of slavery. The fact that someone so privileged had so much ambition to fight for human rights is so reassuring to me. I want to see more of that in our world today. I have always admired Lafayette and I am glad that Jefferson and Washington had a friend who shared his thoughts and beliefs so openly with them. Jefferson and Lafayette share a commitment in opposing oppressive systems. BUT Lafayette is the example of how views can evolve and stances can change. While Jefferson was more pragmatic and prioritized his personal and economic interests over his views of liberty.

“The American Revolution was the most important thing in his life. And the tragedy is he couldn't see that, after the union was formed, that the thing that would split it apart would be the institution of slavery.”

During the podcast, they hinted multiple times that Jefferson just felt like it wasn’t the time and he wasn’t the person. I wonder if he believed that the question of slavery would inevitably lead to war and if that kept him from involving himself? I don't condone or justify his decision but I can see the argument of wanting to avoid another war.

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“I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical, in that all of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something, but we don't have the will to act upon those beliefs. Jefferson did not know what to do about slavery.” - Gordon-Reed

Isn’t this so true? We all have things in our lives we know we should and could change, but we don’t have the will to act upon those beliefs.

“I am not apt to despair, yet I see not how our generation is to disengage itself from this deplorable entanglement.” - Jefferson

Jefferson once said “But as it is, we have the wolf by the ears, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.” (https://classroom.monticello.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/JeffersonQuotesonSlavery-4.pdf)

I think Jefferson was a man torn between what he knew was right and what he thought was possible. Self interest may have tinted his ambition in freeing the slaves, but I  believe he understood how complex of an issue it was and that it would take a war of sorts to make the change.

“So I think for him, politically, that was the choice to make, to do the things that he could realistically have a success with and the things that he, quite frankly, cared more about than ending slavery. And he was not, I don't believe, in the right moment to do that.” - Gordon-Reed

I thought this was a good point, Jefferson accomplished many good things. He may have realized, or believed, he did not have the power, or the will, to end slavery and so he focused on things he felt he could accomplish.

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"We look closely at the life and beliefs of a man who shaped the modern United States and ask how his complexities and contradictions have echoes in our own lives."

I thought the overall topic of this podcast was interesting. Jefferson is certainly an interesting founding father to learn about and I thought this was quote offered a really unique and powerful perspective. I think that Annette Gordon-Reed perfectly summarizes the power that Jefferson's life offers us now. I think that she is completely correct when she explains that we are very similar to Jefferson. We are all doing our best and future generations are going to look back and ask why we didn't do better.

"There's every difference between people who helped to create the United States versus people who tried to destroy the United States. I don't think that just because they're both in the past that we have to think of them as the same because they're not the same. They don't bear the same relation to us."

This quote was so powerful to me and I think that it shows the difference that needs to be drawn. I think that as we examine history and figures that were involved- we need to separate the groups. They lived at different times with different values and had different goals. I appreciate that Gordon-Reed pointed out the distinction between Jefferson and Confederate leaders. They were using the powers they held in different ways to accomplish different things. It is important to recognize the relation between the events and the figures when evaluating them.

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"Now, we're not satisfied with that because we say, you had the talent to do this thing. Why didn't you use the talent to do the other thing? But that's not, you know, what he thought he was here to do. The American Revolution was the most important thing in his life. And the tragedy is he couldn't see that, after the union is formed, that the thing that would split it apart would be the institution of slavery."

I wonder after all the work, effort and compromise it took to bring the colonies together and unify them into states, how they might have stayed unified and emancipated slavery from the beginning. Would the hatred for Britain and the crown have been enough to try it. It seems unlikely with how the Southern states felt at the time but it is an interesting thought to ponder and wonder about.

"And he forged a party that lasted from his election through Jackson. Jackson considered himself to be a Jeffersonian. Nobody's ever done that, had that kind of political influence over that long a period of time. And he didn't do that by making bad political calculations. And we like to think, oh, sure, if you had just tried hard enough, you could have convinced Virginians and Southerners to vote slavery out of existence. I think he looked at that, and he knew that that was not going to happen."

I wonder how many other heart wrenching decisions were made and the fear of where this fledgling nation was headed. The term "Founding Fathers" is incredibly accurate as I watch my first born prepare to graduate and head off to college and think Have I prepared her enough? Will she be able to stand on her own? Jefferson and many others must have felt the same way and had similar feelings about the battles they chose to wage and those that went unfought. The conversation shared earlier in the podcast with Lafayette alludes to the fact that this has been something that has been a source of concern for Jefferson for a long time. Specifically with the statement "(As Thomas Jefferson) I am not apt to despair, yet I see not how our generation is to disengage itself from this deplorable entanglement."

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"Our children see this and learn to imitate it, for man is an imitative animal."

I really like this quote because I feel like most things are learned traits and that students and just kids are very impressionable. If we want to make change or ensure that students and our youth to learn and make change then we have to instill the idea that people are not perfect and we all make mistakes but we can learn from those mistakes as we teach.

"So I don't think it's enough to just say we can't judge people in the past because I, judge may be too strong of a word. You can certainly comment on, you can certainly point out the contradictions, you can point out the differences, the vast, you know, distance between what people in the past thought and what we think.

I also once heard that the people and cultures of our past are just as different as a foreign country's cultures and customs today and we need to treat it as such. I agree with the podcast in which we shouldn't completely say that the people of the past didn't do any wrong but, we can't completely condemn the people of the past either because that was all they knew and they could only do so much. I think to understand the past we must truly understand the customs and cultures of the people that lived in those times.

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"History is a moral profession".

Fortunately and unfortunately I find this to be so true. There are days where I wish I could not care about an issue or topic, but ignorance is not an option. Most days I enjoy the exercises my brain goes through to consider complex topics such as this. I find this quote interesting coming right after the topic of familiar relationships within the institution of slavery and the possibility of its continuation because of those relationships (but also the horror in that.) Relationships are complex themselves, but the addition of possible relationships within slavery is a hard thing to understand. One thing that made me think was when she mentioned how women in general were treated as property and consent is not always freely given. While this in no means justifies in my mind the relationship Jefferson had with Hemings, I do find it interesting to think about.

Another quote along these same lines that made me think was the idea of Jefferson being a "good, benevolent master" and using that as justification for not acting more on the issue of slavery. This theme stuck with me even in the end when she discussed the idea of knowing right and wrong and not acting on it in our own lives. Obviously slavery is a much larger issue, but I find it helpful to consider applying this thought process while looking at those in the past. They were human and knew better. Its frustrating that they didn't act on what they knew to be right, but again, they were human. I think there is still much to be learned and inspired by from individuals even with their flaws, even with ones as large as on the slide of slavery. I do love the non-comparison she gives towards the end though about Confederates not being equal to Founders. Even with how complex of issues these are, we can draw lines.

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My first quote: "The age of consent in Virginia was 10. 16 was not seen as a child."

This hit home I have an 8 year old little boy and the thought of him or someone his age being 2 years from the age of consent was disheartening. I'm very happy that that is being changed in our society and we are learning from our mistakes and correcting them.

My second quote: "Since he [Jefferson] was a widower it was normal for him to take an enslaved women to be a substitute 'wife.'"

I had never really thought about it like that. Jefferson's wife is never really talked about because she was so young when she died. I don't think it is right what he did to Sally, but I can start to understand the reasons behind what he did.

My third quote goes along with the second one: 'Sally's only difference between Thomas Jefferson's first wife and Sally was she could be sold. White women were also hidden and had no rights"

I think we forget how much women were hidden during that time period. Women were not in the spotlight they were in the home working and away from the hustle and bustle. I don't think we would know as much about Abigail Adams and Martha Washington if they had not written so many letters written to their husbands and shared with the public.

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Kelli Myers-The first quotation that I selected is the idea taken from Margaret McFarland, a professor of child psychology at the University of Pittsburgh.  McCullough stated, "she said that attitudes aren't taught, they're caught.  If the teacher has an attitude of enthusiasm for the subject, the student catches that whether the student is in second grade or is in graduate school."  I know this to be true, but haven't ever thought about "catching" attitudes before, and really loved this turn of phrase.  I teach fifth grade in a self-contained classroom, so I consciously strive to make my students believe that every subject I teach is my favorite because I've seen how much more effective I am as a teacher, if students can feel my excitement about something.  I also selected a quotation highlighting the importance of knowing, valuing, and respecting our shared history.  "The laws we live by, the freedoms we enjoy, the institutions that we take for granted--as we should never take for granted--are all the work of other people who went before us.  And to be indifferent to that isn't just to be ignorant, it's to be rude.  And ingratitude is a shabby failing.  How can we not want to know about the people who have made it possible for us to live as we live, to have the freedoms we have, to be citizens of this greatest of countries  in all time?"  It's been awhile since I've read anything by David McCullough, and I had forgotten what a gifted writer he was.   Ingratitude is a shabby failing--I might put this up in my classroom:).  He succinctly and beautifully put into words the importance of not just knowing our history, but respecting and honoring it.  Finally, I loved the words of Abigail Adams to her young son, John Quincy, as he prepared for another treacherous trip across the Atlantic.  She told him, "These are the times in which genius would wish to live.  It is not in the still calm of life or the repose of a pacific station that great characters are formed.  The habits of a vigorous mind are formed in contending with difficulties.  Great necessities call out great virtues.  When a mind is raised and animated by scenes that engage the heart, then those qualities which would otherwise lay dormant wake into life and form the character of the hero and the statesman."  This entire story moved me, quite honestly.  As a mother, I don't know that I believe strongly enough in any cause to imperil my young children.  The thought of his parents putting his very life at risk to allow him to rub shoulders with greatness and further his education, really struck me.  Like many students of history, Abbigail Adams has always held a special place in my heart.  But I've never read this particular quotation before, and was so moved by its beauty and truth.

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This podcast was so interesting to listen to! It got me thinkng about perspectives of the past. One quote that stuck out to me was: "I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical, in that all of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something, but we don't have the will (laughter) to act upon those beliefs. Jefferson did not know what to do about slavery."

This quote really got me thinking about how contradictions are so embedded in life. I think it's nearly impossible to live a life free of hypocrisy.

"I just don't think he could see what a sort of real plan - a realistic plan for what to do about it. And that's something that we grapple with in lots of areas - believing one thing but not having the strength to do something about it or to actually make that idea come to fruition if you have the shot."

This is something we see come up over and over in history and in our own lives. Jefferson didn't see ending slavery as his shot--he didn't see himself as the person to do this and he wasn't living in a time period in which he thought slavery would end. It seems, however, that he could see a future where slavery ended.

"FULLER: (As Israel Gillette Jefferson) Mr. Jefferson replied that he thought the time would come when the slaves would be free.

CASEY: (As Thomas Jefferson) My dear, Lafayette, you know where I stand on this issue.

FULLER: (As Israel Gillette Jefferson) But he did not indicate when or in what manner they would get their freedom.

CASEY: (As Thomas Jefferson) I am not apt to despair, yet I see not how our generation is to disengage itself from this deplorable entanglement.

FULLER: (As Israel Gillette Jefferson) He seemed to think that the time had not then arrived."

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Kelli Myers--I see others have selected this same quotation, but it was pretty hard to pass up. When answering the question regarding whether Jefferson was a hypocrite, she replied, " You could say that, but I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical, in that all of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something, but we don't have the will (laughter) to act upon those beliefs. Jefferson did not know what to do about slavery. Slavery was not just an economic system. It was a system of social control. What do you do with black Virginians when they are emancipated? How do they fit into society? I just don't think he could see what a sort of real plan - a realistic plan for what to do about it. And that's something that we grapple with in lots of areas - believing one thing but not having the strength to do something about it or to actually make that idea come to fruition if you have the shot." I loved the point of her comment, that we are often guilty of hypocrisy, but on a smaller scale, any time our actions don't jive with our beliefs. I thought about this, and was struck by all of the wrongs and injustices I see in the world, and yet do nothing to bring about change. The difference between myself and Jefferson is that as we look back at history, we assume that based on his position, he had the power to actually effect change. In addition to being a hypocrite, I believe he was also a pragmatist. Just as I feel powerless to right so many of the wrongs I see, he may have legitimately felt he didn't have the ability to bring about such monumental change.

The second quotation I selected referenced the "intimate" relationship between Jefferson and Sally Hemmings. "You know, I go back and forth on this. I don't believe that every relationship between an enslaved woman and a master was exactly the same. I think there were different types of connections. And Jefferson, to me, shows signs of having been attached to Sally Hemings. I have no problem saying that because there are no stories about him with any other woman when he comes back from France, you know, ever but her. We don't know about her because once she gets back here, she is totally under his power. But if you look at the kinds of male-female relationships they would have known at that time, a wife, a white wife, would have been under the control of her husband, too. She could not refuse consent to sex any more than an enslaved woman could. He could not sell his wife, but that would be about the only thing that he couldn't do. So we look at this - and there's this sharp difference between male-female relationships. And we see the difference between - obviously a white woman has more power than an enslaved woman. But those people - Sally Hemings would not have thought that as a woman she would have freedom to do whatever she wanted. So it's complicated." This quotation really struck me, because I think it gets at the heart of studying history through our modern lens. We look back at their relationship and see the obvious wrong of an all-powerful man taking advantage of powerless enslaved woman. But Gordon-Reed's observation is correct. Any woman of the time, regardless of her race, would have been without rights or power in her marital or intimate relationships. The concept of equality in a relationship, especially with regard to choice and consent, is a very modern convention. By her choices, Hemings secured special privileges, and ultimate freedom, for herself and her children. Seeing women only as victims of circumstance does them a disservice. It's difficult to put into words without coming across as excusing his behavior, which I am not at all doing. But cast in this light, one is reminded of the very narrow choices and autonomy available to women of any race.

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"So I think he saw it as something that would gradually - and that's the thing that trips us up - gradually end as people became more enlightened and learned more, that they would realize that slavery was a backwards institution, an institution from ancient times. I think he thought it was - just as we learn new scientific thoughts, just as we learn ways to make machines that are better - that the machinery of society would change, as well." Thomas Jefferson knew that slavery was not a good institution but hoped others in the future would help to end it. With all that he had been apart of to this point he wasn't up to getting rid of slavery at this point.

"It's interesting, isn't it, because I think when most of us - at least laypeople - think about the institution of slavery, you think about it in economic terms or political terms. You don't really think about it in terms of these family relationships, which may have been every bit as important in keeping the system intact as the economic and political advantages that slavery conferred on some people." "that was sort of a dilemma that many enslaved people faced. Do you run away and have freedom by yourself or do you stay and stick it out with your family?" I put these two quotes together because when thinking about slavery and what it means, families is not one of the issues that we think about the most. When a slave thought about running away there was more to it as shown in the quote. The slaves that wanted to escape didn't just think about themselves but some of them thought about their families that they would be leaving.

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"I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical, in that all of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something, but we don't have the will to act upon those beliefs. Jefferson did not know what to do about slavery." I liked this quote because it related Jefferson to all of us when we know something but can't quite figure out how to solve this issue. Slavery was this issue I feel Jefferson knew was not only wrong but needed to end. I feel that he wanted to end it, but his behavior and owning of the many slaves he had showed his hypocrisy though he intellectually knew it was wrong. I liked this as it drew the connection to all of us and our own imperfections when faced with a challenge that we intellectually can't seem to solve.

"So yes, a lot of Jefferson's contradictions are alive in us. I don't think there's anybody in the founding generation who embodies that so well or shows this so well. And that's what makes him a subject that we can't really, I think, do without, or we can't push to the side because it's too much of a window into us, as to who we re as Americans." I liked this quote as it mentions that we as Americans are mirrors to who Jefferson was. Everyday he must have been plagued with what the priorities were and the challenges what were faced to create a new nation. Most influencers are often portrayed as less than perfect but we forget that we, ourselves, are just the same. If we are only judged by our mistakes, we probably would not continue to strive to make a difference. It is sad to me knowing all the amazing things that were accomplished by Jefferson, we tend to spend too much time on his contradictions in his personal life and his slavery issues.

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“Well, Sally Hemings - Sarah, nicknamed Sally - was sister to Robert and James.”

I found it interesting that Jefferson was clearly drawn towards the Hemings. I wonder why he favored them over his other slaves. What was the connection that he had with this family and how did it come about?

“. . . a white wife, would have been under the control of her husband, too. She could not refuse consent to sex any more than an enslaved woman could.”

I think this really puts into perspective that at this point in time wives were property to men just as slaves were property to men. I think anger isn’t quite the right emotion I am looking for, but something adjacent to it.

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I find it interesting that as Thomas Jefferson decided to be a "benevolent" slave master, it may have justified in his mind the idea that slavery didn't necessarily need to go away. Hard to believe that all of us may have thought the same way had we lived during these times.

Second quote. "Jefferson was probably the most talented politician of his time"

It goes on to say that he helped write many enduring and brilliant founding documents and created the most successful early political party in the Democratic Republicans. He also was the purchaser of the Louisiana Purchase from France. What I find interesting is that today people only know him for being a slaveholder and are tearing down statues of the founders because of it. Modern society (especially the media) are quick to forget how instrumental he and the other founders were to establishing the building blocks that makes our country so unique.

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One quote that I found interesting was, "But yeah, yeah, I think in all of us there are things that we know are wrong, and because of our other preoccupations, we say, well, that thing will take care of itself. Somebody else will figure that out. That's for someone else to deal with. Even though we know that, you know, we could make a contribution. So yeah, looking at him makes you think about yourself as well."

I often wonder what my children and my grandchildren will chide me on when I am older. Sadly, each generation has the things that end up swept under the rug that we hope someone else will deal with.

Another quote I found interesting was, "I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical, in that all of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something, but we don't have the will (laughter) to act upon those beliefs. Jefferson did not know what to do about slavery."

I found this quote interesting because the conversation spent time setting up how Jefferson viewed slavery. He saw himself as an enlightened individual. How often do we find ourselves in hypocritical situations (not to the extreme of slavery) and do nothing because we are not sure where we can make an impact.

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The first quote that stood out to me was this: "So I think for him, politically, that was the choice to make, to do the things that he could realistically have a success with and the things that he, quite frankly, cared more about than ending slavery. And he was not, I don't believe, in the right moment to do that."

Before I judge Jefferson, I always reflect on what I know is incorrect, what i know should be fixed but do not feel i have the tools or capacity to fix right now. We all experience things of this nature, and it is a testimony to me that all people in history do the same things we do for the same reasons - we are humans, and there is a great deal of imperfection in all of us.

The second quote is - well, it's less of a quote and more of a general reflection on the story of Sally Hemmings. The interviewer on the podcast seemed skeptical that Jefferson could have a loving relationship with a woman who was a slave. If I divorce myself from my initial instinct when I hear this story, I find that it is not so implausible. Jefferson undoubtedly considered himself responsible for her, and there was no way they could have married in any case, as the podcast points out. I do not think that genuine love was out of the question; in fact, I find it a likely scenario. What better station could she have achieved as a free woman? Would it have been possible for her to continue as a mistress if she was free? What did Jefferson and Sally know or understand about the conditions of the time that we do not? Or, was Jefferson indeed cruel and hypocritical in this scenario. What do you all think?

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The first that I thought about while listening to the podcast was that when we have an intellectual belief in something but do not know what to do about it. I think that a lot of people have this same belief it is hard to stand up and know what to do about things.

The next part that caused me to pause and think was about how family was so important to people and the hard decisions that people had to make about running away and being free by themselves, or staying and being enslaved with their family.

I also feel that it is very hard for us to understand the way people lived back there in regards to how the families worked and why people would stay.

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This was such an interesting and thought provoking podcast with so many wonderful quotes!

"Jefferson was a great believer in progress and things being better in the future than they were in the present...that's a strength and a weakness. Some people say the optimism was almost too great. But he definitely thought that mankind and society would get better and better." We can look back at Jefferson's life and see that he wanted better for society but did so many important things for our new country. We can't underestimate the things that he accomplished as a founding father of our country because of what he wasn't able to accomplish or because of his mistakes.

I think that Jefferson knew that he wouldn't be able to bring slavery to an end and made changes where he could. "He helped the United States come into existence. Breaking with Great Britain, setting up a government, that was a pretty big deal, and that the next generation of people had something to do, as well, and that was to make the progress on the issue of slavery that he thought could be made."

One more quote that I liked was "We don't always do what we think or we know is the right thing to do." Jefferson knew that slavery was wrong but also knew that he couldn't change the minds of the all the people that that needed to be changed. He knew that he could do more good in being the president and founding father than in trying to fight slavery.

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I think it is interesting that Gordon-Reed talked about how Thomas Jefferson believed that slavery was an issue and it was something that need to be fixed but it went beyond an economic system but was also a social control, and explained how it would be a more difficult issue to dismantel within the country following the Revolutionary War, "You could say that, but I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical, in that all of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something, but we don't have the will (laughter) to act upon those beliefs. Jefferson did not know what to do about slavery... I just don't think he could see what a sort of real plan - a realistic plan for what to do about it. And that's something that we grapple with in lots of areas - believing one thing but not having the strength to do something about it or to actually make that idea come to fruition if you have the shot." I liked how Gordon- Reed did not justify or explaing why Jefferson is not wrong, but explains how this is a difficult topic to to discuss now and at the time of Jefferson, and explains how society then and today might share the same habits of saying, "Someone else will fight that fight, or make that change", I think that Jefferson understood what slavery was and the negative impact it had on human beings, but he also understood the magnitude and what it would take to make that change, and prioritized other causes that he felt he could personally contribute to, to help change.

Another quote I thought was intersting was where Gordon-Reed is talking about how writing history can be a difficult thing to do without writing and imputting your own personal views on the actions of people, saying, "And so I might have a different view of Jefferson. I have a particular view of Jefferson from this particular time and seeing him as, for lack of a better term, an enemy of these people. But it's not clear to me that she would have seen it in exactly the same way that I did. And that's one of the things you have to do when you're writing history is whatever you would want people to do, they may not think about things in the same way. So family and her history with Jefferson, not just the two of them but his relations with her mother and her brothers and all of these people, likely colored the way she considered making this decision." I think this shows that even as a historian, and someone who might have a better understanding of how certain actions in history, might lead to other events, she does not shy away from the fact that individuals, including herself, can have differing opinions of a historical figure based on the research that they have done and the personal views one can have. I think this ultimately shows that we cannot criticize Sally for choosing to go back, and in Gordon-Reed's words, "give up, essentially, freedom in France to come back and be a slave in Virginia".

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One quote that stood out to me was, “I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical, in that all of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something, but we don't have the will to act upon those beliefs.” I think many people are guilty of this; I know I am. We do things we know are wrong or bad or unfair. We may even actively preach against doing those things while we continue to do them.

The next quote I chose goes along with my previous quote: “I think in all of us there are things that we know are wrong, and because of our other preoccupations, we say, well, that thing will take care of itself. Somebody else will figure that out. That's for someone else to deal with. Even though we know that, you know, we could make a contribution.” It goes along with the mentality of people to disregard things as “not my problem.” But, if everyone had this mentality, nothing would change.

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Even as he became a slaveholder, Jefferson also thought of himself as being an educated and cultured man. He read voraciously. He loved music. He considered himself to be a man of science and reason. And much of his learning taught him that slavery was a terrible institution, but slavery was also, as we've discovered, essential to his way of life.”

I like this quote because it gives nuance to Jefferson in a way that helps us explain him and his life. I feel like pointing out the contrasts in what he learned and how he was raised gives us valuable insight.

“There's something deeply ironic about this, isn't there? I mean, you have these two people who are speaking about high ideals and about the importance of equality, and they are being driven around by somebody who is a slave. And you look at this, and you say, how can you not see what is happening?”

I feel like this quote is exactly how almost anyone would respond to this exchange. It is always interesting to see how contradictions in the past. It’s baffling but also gives insight into the psyche of those involved. The irony is evident for us but maybe not for them.

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The first quote that stood out to me is, "I think he [Thomas Jefferson] was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical, in that all of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something, but we don't have the will to act upon those beliefs."

I loved in the podcast how it's okay to look back on history with a moral lens, for history is a moral profession; if we didn't, we would never be able to learn from the past. However, I loved this added idea that the issue of looking at history with a moral lens comes in when we do so with blinders to our own flaws and imperfections. We must develop empathy for the flaws of those who have come before us, for we ourselves are also flawed creatures. Though our situations may be different, a lot of the internal struggle and emotions are the same.

The second quote that stood out to me is, "once you start to acquiesce or think of yourself as a good slave owner, I think the urgency about ending slavery dissipates." I had never thought of this principle so clearly before, and it honestly hit me like a ton of bricks! When we experience an intellectual/moral issue within ourselves, perhaps our efforts to mitigate the contradiction may lead to worse outcomes. I think this quote holds the key (at least one of them) for why Jefferson was able to continue with the institution of slavery despite believing it was unethical.

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“All nations are built on stories. They’re stories about ideals, the values around which a people stake their identity.Often, these stories contain contradictions, some so profound that most of us simply look the other way.”

History class is where we learn the stories of our nation. Looking through the Utah state core, one of the premises and goals is to incentivize a sense of civic virtue and patriotic pride. However, history classroom is also a place where we must learn how to read like a historian - using critical analysis to deconstruct the past. This, to is a contradiction.  How can you feel proud of and love a hero who was also cruel and unethical? It requires a delicate balance the part of history teachers to help students both feel civic pride and be critical thinkers.

“So I don't think it's enough to just say we can't judge people in the past because I - judge may be too strong a word. You can certainly comment on, you can certainly point out the contradictions, you can point out the differences, the vast, you know, distance between what people in the past thought and what we think.”

I appreciate this change of frame from “judge” to “comment on” to look at historical figures. Too often I depend on the good vs. evil or hero vs. villain archetype to teach about historical figures. While this makes my life easier as a teacher,  I find it incredibly dangerous because my students start adopting that same viewpoint and forget to think historically.  I hope that this is something I can change by using more primary sources and deeper questions in my teaching.