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I agree with Greg, Lincoln is a confusing figure.

But I think his writings/speeches make it clear he detested the institution.

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Yea Brendan i agree because if he didn't be a flip flopper he wouldn't have been pres. and done the thing he was able to accommish in his terms of office.

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Yea i agree with Meri too because he told the people what they wanted to hear and once he was in office, he can do whatever he want with any issues he flipflop

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Lincoln's wife was from a major slave holding family deffiently was major contribtor to Lincoln's ideas on slaverly

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Lincoln said “a peaceful end of slavery sometime.” He never really ended slavery and people are giving him credit for something he didn’t fully do.

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I didn’t like when Lincoln said “nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races.”

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Something I thought was interesting was Lincoln said “It will become all one thing or all the other.” It is showing how he didn’t believe it could be divided.

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Does anyone think it is a bad thing that Lincoln is a "flip flopper" if he is actually doing it for the well-being of the Union?

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Wouldn't standing for the Union be "something" not "nothing"? This makes him a great president, serving the COUNTRY to the best of his abilities, not an agenda.

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it def. depends on how one views racism; if L. is judged by today's def: one race is better, then L.was racist,AT ONE POINT, he wasn't racist his entire life

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Not so much changing his view as stating different sides of arguments. The man is a master of word choice.

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L. was prob. speaking his views that he only knew growing up as a kid; his views changed post-war; people are allowed to change when persuaded by another view

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I think L. was just trying to win favor in different parts of the US; he wanted to win, so he changed views a lot.

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Mr. K, maybe Lin. was just speaking blindly when he said whites were superior? Or maybe that was how he really felt. Will we ever really know? Probably not.

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I'm confused. Lin. was raised in a racist com, but he wasn't actually faced w/ what he thought about slavery until campaigning. Was he just going w/ the flow?

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I agree w/ Meri too. Those were the problems that we presented the most, therefore those were the ones he had to address.

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(cont.) when we review Lincoln, it's obvious important to point out his racist remarks, but those aren't nearly important as the big picture: ending slavery.

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(cont.) wrong, even if his reasons for thinking it was wrong weren't the same as abolitionists he still thought that it was a wrong thing to do. So, I feel that

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I agree w/ Brendan 100% but is agreeing to Lincoln being prejudice the same type of thing as the racist comments? Does the definition change through generation?

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I half way agree w/ Meri. I don't think he was racist because his veiw on blacks was not his focus, I do agree that he said things for attention; truth or not

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In a way I understand what Andrew is saying because I agree that Lincoln put the country first but I don't think that he stood for nothing at all.

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I'm stickin' to my points I made in the past few days. He grew up a racist, and said things he maybe didn't mean to get voters attention so he could become pres

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(cont.) less chastized. He did Emancipate most of the slaves, yeah to help him win a war, but he freed them to preserve the Union and he knew that slavery was

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Mr. K, I don't think we should totally dismiss it. I just think that when it comes to remembering Lincoln for all of his achievement, his racism should be

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Andrew, you make it appear that Lincoln actually stood for nothing and was just a puppet of the Union.

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The N word discussion is sticky.  It is nearly impossible to understand the use of that word from our perspective.

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Good point Brendan.  Isn't everyone predjudiced, the problem is when one lets that initial feeling blindly guide their actions: racism.

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(continued) having an opinion didn't make him evil and useless to society.

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Lincoln may have used the N word and may have believed other things than what he was doing as a president and all that but he did fix and preserve the union...

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I agree w/ Noel & Brendan. THis is what I tried to say in a comment yesterday my the words I used didn't come out right. His ideas were not 1st, the country was

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I comepletly agree with Brendan because the point that was made in class that Lincoln may have said some of the "racists" things he said to get people to listen

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I agree Sam, but then again, to some people its not too reassuring to think a president isn't being completely honest with their actions.

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If Lincoln had to move the slaves to a different country he would do it if he had to. If he didn't have to Emancipate the slaves he wouldn't have to. 

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He would only do want he had to do, to save the Union, he set his own option aside and would do what he had to get the Union back together.

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He was an absolute flip flopper, if the Union had to delcare war, he would go to war, if he had to ban slaverly, he would ban it for the greater good of the US.

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Jess, you talk like a politician's ideas are not supposed to adapt. His beliefs are not set in stone once he has stated them. A narrow-minded pres is no good.

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To comment on Alli, can you really blame him for being an efficient politician in a time when the country needed a "hero" to hold itself together? I can't.

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Amen, Noel. Lincoln put the good of the union and it's citizens before his own beliefs. I still believe he was an amazing president.

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You can't judge a politician on his being political. Of course he is going to be on the fence and cast himself in different lights to appeal to different groups

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Slaves could go home to their "native" land, and would not have to compete in a racist capitalist society, white men's jobs would not be put at risk.

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To respond to Tom, the deportation of slaves may have seemed like the best economical and even the best moral decision at the moment for everyone's benefit.

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Unionist is a made up word...I think... ----------->

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I don't think Lincoln was any of the three. He simply seems to be a unionist. Every decision he made reflected his sole desire, to keep the union intact. 

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he was prejudiced, but not racist, in my opinion. Though he thought less of black people, he did not let his prejudice thoughts impact his actions.

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I don't agree with Meri or Noel on this one. He could genuinely mean everything he said, viewpoints and ideologies would adapt to fit his situation.

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A successful president; yes. A successful leader; no.

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^a good point Alli. Everyone says Lincoln was this highly intellegent man. Maybe he was just quick to cover himself when it showed he wasn't really that bright.

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If you look at comment 5 on the paper today, it shows that Lincoln went along with things that would make him look good to the majority of the public; (whites).

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Lincoln said he was with the blacks but he used the “N-word” and racist jokes. He also hinted the equality for blacks was a bad thing to do, he WAS a racist.

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He claimed he hated slavery, and thought the civil war would solve it, but it didn’t and slavery continued and was still an issue, he hardly fixed anything.

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Lincoln said he hated slavery the first time he saw it, for economic and moral reasons, and the Declaration did apply to the slaves but I don’t believe him.

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At first, I belive, he acted in contradiction to his beliefs, but as his term went on his opinions on slaves changed for the better. 

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Along with Steve, he may have thought slavery was wrong, but the fact he did not beleive them equal does make him a racst, at least by todays standard.

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I agree with Noel. Growing up in the South and in a world that really belived slavery was a normal thing must have had an impact on his original outlook  

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(cont) He told his people exactly what they wanted to hear, whether they were slaves or racists. He did what he had to do to stay on top. Just a politician. 

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I think a good point to make is that he was simply ignorant. He said what he felt when he wanted. But is still remembered fondly. He played his cards right. 

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I agree with Meri; Lincoln was probably so heavily influenced by his childhood; however it doesn't mean that Lincoln is open for changing his views

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Im with wells. His emancipation was not just because he saw slavery as immoral. He wanted to free them then get rid of them. 

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"cont" 
how he views slavery as the most immoral thing imagineable. In quote 5 he states how blacks shouldnt be equal socially or politically. 

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cont.. he didn't know any better to say different about slaves. I suppose it's only natural that he'd have certain feelings for them. But they eventually change

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Knowing how people thought about things, we should be able to think differently about Abraham Lincoln's choices. He grew up in a racist town with racist people

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I found it ironic that Pres Lincoln didn't think it unmoral for people to be treating others that way, but that others were missing out on slavery opportunities

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I agree with Noel. Lincoln had to say things he didn't necessarily believe in so he could get the attention of voters.

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If you were to read quotes 3 and 5 without knowing they were both from Lincoln you would think they were from two completely different people. Quote 3 explains 

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^good points. someone can believe slavery is wrong and human cruelty, yet still have a prejudice towards a certain  race because that's the way they were raised

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Although Lincoln didn't believe in equality, it could never be reached. The moment the white race looked down on blacks equality was made impossible forever.

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(con't.) we should judge Lincoln on the decisions he made as a president, since that's what affects our country the most.

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I think what Sam meant, is that Lincoln was racist, but he made decisions that went against his beliefs; we can't completely judge Lincoln on his beliefs

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Lincoln was careful about the decisions he made; he had to make choices that he didn't agree w/; I be that's why he was able to succeed as a president

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I agree with What andrew said. Every generation will have a different view of what is and is not racist.

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And wanting to deport slaves because they don't deserve the freedoms whites did makes him a racist in my eyes.

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I think its obvious that he was a racist. Yes he freed slaves, but it was only for the good of the Union. As Bri says his plan called for deporting slaves

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"I do not expect the house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided." The house will always be divided- Republicans and Democrats.

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Audrey, isn't that worse that just being racist?  He didn't believe in equality, but believed he could "use" the slaves to achieve his end goal.

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True, the ability to understand the past requires us to forget aspects of the past.  Some say the best quality humans have is their ability to forget easily.

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It said that Lincoln stayed on the fence. I feel like he did that because he wanted to win and after he won, he told everyone how he really felt.

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Bri, I wrote that comment down as well...Sam, how can you so quickly dismiss the racist component of Lincoln?

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I agree with Bri. When the Yale guy said that you need to forget some things to remember someone, that's how we should treat Lincoln. Forget his racism.

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Lincoln had a three step plan to abolishing slavery
Gradual-over 30 year span
Pay slave owners back for their loss
Deport slaves

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I was not aware a big reason that Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery because it was "un moral because all white people cannot have slaves." 

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I like when the professor said "remembering is to some degree forgetting" I did not completely understand it, but it seemed rather deep.

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Lincoln had biased views, but he was also giving power to blacks, the power he gave them was to vote against him, and that freedom showed respect. 

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The thing that was so great about Lincoln was that he was diplomatic, politics aren't always about personal opinions. 

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Good point Noel.  Isn't it possible he may have never been elected if he wasn't somewhat racist...no one would have listened to him.

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Wasnt against slavery because it was abuse to blacks, but it was sad for the whites who couldnt buy them. He never changed his mind over time, always racist.

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He believed that slavery was wrong, but so was equality among races.

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 It describes Lincoln as a "beacon of tolerance" He didn't like African Americans but he was tolerant of them because he knew that slavery broke up union.

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Also Steve, to perserve the Union, he swore an oath to save Union and he did.

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Lincoln was only doing what anyother person in America was doing, which was to make a money in the end, he did put his own option to the side for the US.

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I believe that Lincoln shouldn't be judged by his beliefs as a person; he should be judged on what he decided as a president

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His actions conflicted with his racist beliefs; and because he was able to carry out his decisions it made him into a "legend"

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I believe Lincoln was racist at one point; he valued a race higher than another, and by our definition today that is being racist.

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 Well defind a racist, now to us Lincoln was a racist indeed in our time period, but back then was he a racist, i dont believe he was.

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I do agree that he changed his opinion on slaves. For example, his meeting with Fredrick Douglass. He was the first person he treated as "an intellectual equal

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I agree with Bri. No matter what the facts are, people will take them  and add their own opinions to them. It is up to each individual to decide what they think

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Ashley, do you really think it is possible for someone to change their mind about something that is so straight forward?

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Whatever his beliefs may be, it is clear that he freed the slaves for only political purposes. As stated, the differance between a win and a loss was slavery

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Quotes are quotes...it is how WE use them to define who his is that changes, not who Lincoln was. 

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How could his decisions as president not be impacted by his beliefs?  His beliefs might have changed, but they most certainly guided his actions.