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Ghost Ships' From North Korea Wash Ashore In Japan : NPR

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Ghost Ships' From North Korea Wash Ashore In Japan : NPR

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North Korean fishing ships continue to wash up on Japanese shores. NPR's Michel Martin talks to Los Angeles Times Beijing bureau chief Jonathan Kaiman about where these ships are coming from.

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:

We'd like to talk now about an issue that's causing concern in North Korea that has nothing to do with the country's recent nuclear test. Last Monday, a small wooden boat washed up on a beach in northwest Japan. The coast guard found eight bodies on it. There were clues that it came from North Korea, including knife - lifejackets with Korean lettering and North Korean cigarettes on board.

This wasn't the first incident. In fact, North Korean boats have been washing up on Japan's coasts since 2013, and the number of ships has risen since then. At least four of these so-called ghost ships washed up on Japanese beaches just last month. The question is, why? Los Angeles Times journalist Jonathan Kaiman wrote about this, and he's with us now from Beijing. Mr. Kaiman, thanks so much for speaking with us.

JONATHAN KAIMAN: Thank you so much for having me.

MARTIN: So when did this start happening and is there a reason this seems to be happening more frequently now?

KAIMAN: Well, this has been happening for decades, yet it has spiked. And Japanese experts have several different theories as to why. Some say that the people on board may have been trying to defect as Kim Jong Un, the country's leader, has effectively militarized and closed the border with China, which is a more common route for defectors.

There is also a professor in Tokyo who I think has the most compelling theory. His name is Satoru Miyamoto, and he believes that the number of ships washing ashore spiked in 2013 after Kim Jong Un put out a call to expand the fisheries industry to increase revenue for the military. He said that the order prompted scores of soldiers to go out on old boats without proper navigation equipment and, in some cases, no fishing experience onto what is, really, a perilous body of water - the Sea of Japan - in November.

MARTIN: What are some of the things that people are seeing on these boats? You're saying that they seem to be in pretty spare condition with pretty sparse equipment.

KAIMAN: Yeah. I saw some of the boats myself. And they're very - they're very spartan. And you see Korean script written on the side of the boat, some of which mark the boats as military. And on board, you see North Korean cigarette packs, tattered North Korean flags. Some of them also, as you said, wash ashore with bodies onboard. And some of them are so badly decomposed that one coast guard investigator told me he couldn't even identify their genders.

MARTIN: Does the North Korean government ever ask for the remains to be returned or repatriated to them? Does the North Korean government have anything to say about this?

KAIMAN: Not that I know of. I've never seen a statement from the North Korean government. But when things aren't going well in North Korea, they're very rarely publicized to any degree, and people are kept largely in the dark.

MARTIN: Does this whole phenomenon say something about what's happening in North Korea? I mean, is there something larger that we could read into this other than the fact that North Korea is willing to put people out on the seas who don't know how to fish?

KAIMAN: I think the scale of the problem suggests that things in North Korea are bad. I think just like the defector who crossed the DMZ was found with long parasites in his stomach, any case of North Koreans entering the outside world either as defectors or essentially dead military fishermen washing ashore on the west coast of Japan - they hint at the scale of a humanitarian emergency in North Korea that's greater than outside observers can easily comprehend.

MARTIN: That's Jonathan Kaiman. He's the Beijing bureau chief for the Los Angeles Times. He was kind enough to speak to us from Beijing. Jonathan Kaiman, thanks so much for speaking with us.

KAIMAN: Thanks so much for having me.

Copyright © 2017 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by Verb8tm, Inc., an NPR contractor, and produced using a proprietary transcription process developed with NPR. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR's programming is the audio record.

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'Ghost Ships' From North Korea Wash Ashore In Japan

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North Korean fishing ships continue to wash up on Japanese shores. NPR's Michel Martin talks to Los Angeles Times Beijing bureau chief Jonathan Kaiman about where these ships are coming from. MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: We'd like to talk now about an issue that's causing concern in North Korea that has nothing to do with the country's recent nuclear test.

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LA Times' Journalist Was Granted Rare Access To Pyongyang Celebration : NPR

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LA Times' Journalist Was Granted Rare Access To Pyongyang Celebration : NPR

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DAVID GREENE, HOST:

Tense moments this morning for Jonathan Kaiman of the LA Times and other Western journalists. They had been invited to North Korea to watch a parade honoring the country's founder. We reached Jonathan on Skype just as he was trying to get out of the country.

JONATHAN KAIMAN: I'm with a large group of journalists, tourists and diplomats. We arrived at the Pyongyang International Airport at about 7 o'clock this morning for an 8:30 a.m. flight back to Beijing. And we have been here ever since. It's been about eight hours now. There are a few dozen of us hanging out by the gate. We have no word about what's happening. The departures board just went dark. We just don't know whether this is political. We know that China has been putting pressure on North Korea to dial down its rhetoric after a series of missile tests. We know that American Vice President Pence is in South Korea right now.

GREENE: Yeah. And Pence in...

KAIMAN: But...

GREENE: ...Seoul earlier made these comments about North Korea not testing America's resolve. I mean, could that have something to do with you - them not letting you out yet?

KAIMAN: Absolutely, absolutely. Tensions are very high right now, and there's a very good chance that this has something to do with the political situation. That being said, this is North Korea. It's a poor country, and there's a good chance that Air Koryo's mechanical situation isn't up to par - there was a computer failure or a radar failure, and the only guy who can fix it hasn't been in touch. So we just don't know.

GREENE: This is an extraordinary moment for you to be there and trying to come home as Vice President Mike Pence is, you know, is sending a pretty tough message from right across the border in the demilitarized zone, suggesting that North Korea should not test America's resolve here.

KAIMAN: Absolutely, absolutely. And the U.S. has been sending extraordinarily tough messages for the past week or two. And we've seen signs here that it has rattled the North Korean leadership. I've heard from several government minders, who have been assigned to us here in Pyongyang, that the Syria strike in particular has been very unnerving for the North Korean leadership.

They fear a preemptive strike on North Korea, and they've ratcheted up their rhetoric about how they are willing to respond. So it has been a very tense time. That being said, North Korea has been involved in tense standoffs with South Korea and the U.S. intermittently for the past several decades. So...

GREENE: This is an important point, though. I mean, it sounds like you are describing a government that is almost on a war footing and is taking these warnings from the United States very seriously.

KAIMAN: It certainly seems that way. North Korea has threatened to attack the U.S. in the case of a preemptive strike, and that is very clear. The only real channel through which we're getting any sense of how the North Korean government is thinking about this is that Trump is the wild card. They don't know what he'll do.

GREENE: What was this parade like, Jonathan?

KAIMAN: I think it was probably more - far more intense in person than any image or any video would really let on. We were standing right next to the columns of tanks and the goose-stepping soldiers. And you could smell the diesel coming from these tanks. Every time these soldiers boots hit the ground, you would feel the ground reverberate. It was a very intense experience.

The military parade, also, was followed by a more civilian parade. Large crowds of Pyongyang residents were gathered around these floats with their eyes gazed up at the rostrum where Kim Jong Un, their supreme leader, was standing, tears running down their faces, shouting long live.

GREENE: You are suggesting - I mean, there is true loyal devotion among many North Koreans for this man.

KAIMAN: Absolutely. And, you know, the thing about being here that makes it so frustrating - it's impossible to drive a wedge between what's real and what's fabricated or what's forced and what's genuine. I mean, of course they live under tremendous fear that if they step out of line, the consequences are just unspeakable. I mean, these labor camps up in the north of the country have been very well-documented.

And it's not only dissent that could get you sent to one of these camps - it's even disillusionment. It's these - what we would consider the smallest offenses. So there absolutely is an element of fear. But if you realize that these people also grew up under a system which has presented the leader of the country as a godlike figure and they're presented with images of this figure from when they're small children. And that registers.

GREENE: Then we have this failed missile launch. I mean, did North Korean officials who you've dealt with, your minders, acknowledge that as, you know, as a disappointment?

KAIMAN: No. I think the dwelling on the failure of the missile launch is a bit of a red herring. One, they didn't even know that the missile failed. Even when missile launches are successful, North Korean state media won't run news about them for a day after the launch. When they fail, state media doesn't report them at all. So among the North Koreans I've spoken with, almost all of them have, one, not known that a missile launch occurred and, two, refused to believe that it did fail. And when I pressed them on it, they said that even if it did fail, that failure is essentially just a stepping stone to success.

GREENE: I know you cover this story from your post in China. Do you remember a moment of tension this high?

KAIMAN: No. I think there were moments in 2010 when there was an artillery volley between North and South across the border. Tensions were very high. In 2015, when there was another round of tensions and Kim Jong Un put his military on wartime footing, tensions were high. But that was usually a North-South thing, and the U.S. was sort of in the background.

This time, I think because of Trump's unpredictability, because of Kim Jong-Un's unpredictability - he's fairly new to the role. He's only been the top leader for a few years - and because of all of these other variables with China, with this new leadership coming in the South - they have elections coming up very shortly - there's so many unpredictable factors. And I've never seen anything like this.

GREENE: And you - just so we know, I mean, you and a number of other journalists are just hanging out there now. I mean, can you find something...

KAIMAN: Yeah.

GREENE: ...To read?

KAIMAN: Well, the bookstore doesn't sell much beyond, you know, "The Collective Works Of Kim Jong Il" and "The Collective Works Of Kim Il Sung." So both those get old quick. But we have food. There is snacks. The Pyongyang International Airport is fairly modern. I think China helped them build it a couple years ago. There's coffee. We just opened a bottle of champagne to pass the time. So morale is still high even if anxiety is mounting.

GREENE: Jonathan Kaiman, Beijing bureau chief for the LA Times. He and a group of journalists were being held at the airport in North Korea. They weren't sure why. We can safely report now their flight has now departed. Jonathan is on his way home to China.

Copyright © 2017 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by Verb8tm, Inc., an NPR contractor, and produced using a proprietary transcription process developed with NPR. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR's programming is the audio record.

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'LA Times' Journalist Was Granted Rare Access To Pyongyang Celebration

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DAVID GREENE, HOST: Tense moments this morning for Jonathan Kaiman of the LA Times and other Western journalists. They had been invited to North Korea to watch a parade honoring the country's founder. We reached Jonathan on Skype just as he was trying to get out of the country.

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People - Jonathan  Kaiman | WNYC | New York Public Radio, Podcasts, Live Streaming Radio, News

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People - Jonathan  Kaiman | WNYC | New York Public Radio, Podcasts, Live Streaming Radio, News

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People - Jonathan Kaiman | WNYC | New York Public Radio, Podcasts, Live Streaming Radio, News

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WNYC is America's most listened-to public radio station and the producer of award-winning radio programs and podcasts, including Radiolab, On the Media, Freakonomics Radio, Here's the Thing with Alec Baldwin, The Brian Lehrer Show, The Leonard Lopate Show and many others. WNYC also features NPR news and programs including Morning Edition, All Things Considered and Fresh Air.

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Jonathan Kaiman is the Los Angeles Times' Beijing bureau chief. He was previously a correspondent for the Guardian, a freelance writer and a Fulbright scholar researching folklore in China's rural southwest. He graduated from Vassar College.

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Jonathan Kaiman is the Los Angeles Times' Beijing bureau chief. He was previously a correspondent for the Guardian, a freelance writer and a Fulbright scholar researching folklore in China's rural southwest. He graduated from Vassar College.

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Jonathan Kaiman is the Los Angeles Times' Beijing bureau chief. He was previously a correspondent for the Guardian, a freelance writer and a Fulbright scholar researching folklore in China's rural southwest. He graduated from Vassar College.

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Jonathan Kaiman is the Los Angeles Times' Beijing bureau chief. He was previously a correspondent for the Guardian, a freelance writer and a Fulbright scholar researching folklore in China's rural southwest. He graduated from Vassar College.

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Meet the Journalists: Noah Fowler and Jonathan Kaiman

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Meet the Journalists: Noah Fowler and Jonathan Kaiman

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Los Angeles Times staff writer Jonathan Kaiman and visual journalist Noah Fowler traveled to Ethiopia, Djibouti, Kenya, and Ghana for a series of reports on a massive program of Chinese investment that is reshaping Africa.

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Meet the Journalists: Noah Fowler and Jonathan Kaiman

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Los Angeles Times staff writer Jonathan Kaiman and visual journalist Noah Fowler traveled to Ethiopia, Djibouti, Kenya, and Ghana for a series of reports on a massive program of Chinese investment that is reshaping Africa.

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Jointly established by New York University and East China Normal University, NYU Shanghai is the third degree-granting campus in NYU's global network, joining NYU Abu Dhabi and NYU's campus in New York City.

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All Stories by Jonathan Kaiman - The Atlantic

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All Stories by Jonathan Kaiman - The Atlantic

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The Atlantic covers news and analysis on politics, business, culture, technology, national, international and life on the official site of The Atlantic Magazine.