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de ja vu - in response to the first post by "ncason"

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de ja vu - in response to the first post by "ncason"

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This extract sums up numerous conversations I have had throughout this degree. It is clear that there is a divided in our current society, and though out our nations history, of men being sentenced more frequently then women. We have seen numerous arguments for equality and equity and it's interesting to see that it is still not upheld within the CJS. I would be interested to know whether or not the crime rate for women has in fact increased or maybe severity of crimes has increased; or wether or not the incarceration rate has just increased.

If anyone has the time, I highly suggest watching 2 netflix series: "deadly women"- In one of the first episodes it shows the case of the Brisbane vampire women/murderers, as well as the girl who influenced the song "I don't like mondayds". This mini doco series is interesting within it self, however the way the represent these women as if its more shocking that a female could ever commit such crimes.

The other series is "Rebellion" is a mini series based around the fight for home-rule against England. The main characters are women, and their crimes/ fights. It's displayed more of an empowerment that women can too fight/commit crimes that are generally "mens crimes"

Zoey Hemsworth

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"The degree of civilization in society can be judged by entering its prisons" Dostoevsky.

Prisons as a part of a larger criminal justice system reflect any societies norms and codes relating to acceptable social conduct. So this quote has two interconnected meanings, first; who, how and why are the people in prison in prison? A dictatorship may have many political prisoners, a society that has high levels of economic disparity might house more prisoner that have been charged with property offences. This would seem straight forward, Dostoevsky's statement also highlights power in society is expressed through the mechanisms of law and its prisons. Secondly the statement could be interpreted more literally, what are the physical and psychological conditions of prisons, are prisoner treated with respect or actively dehumanized as part of the punishment. Punishment reflects the moral and social codes of a society.

These thoughts have implications for the Australian context, Australia clearly incarcerates indigenous populations at a higher rate than non-indigenous peoples. Does this mean that Australia is a racist country or just that indigenous populations are living in society with a high degree of marginalization that leads to contact with the criminal justice system?

Australia currently keeps thousands of refugees in offshore detention facilities, which according to media reports are incredibly harsh, unsafe and inhuman. How does this reflect on Australia? Not well in my opinion.

Stephen Lucock

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It’s an interesting quote, partly because Dostoevsky was sentenced to hard labour. I interpret this as prisons mirroring society (as many have already said), with regards to, not only what sorts of crimes are prevalent, but also how society responds to crimes and criminals. It may also reflect the power hierarchies that exist in society. I’m not necessarily talking about socio-economic but rather on a larger scale. Politicians getting away with things normal citizens would not.

How staff treat inmates may reflect certain dominant prevailing attitudes. I guess I’m thinking about Abu Ghraib and the horrific acts (crimes) committed by staff. Obviously there is a lot of psychology behind this, but beyond that, certain countries justify torture on people who are not permitted due process and ordinary moral treatment, by justifying why they are doing it “protecting their country”. But perhaps if these attitudes exist in society, it’s possible to understand how staff commit acts on people “beneath them”; a power hierarchy.

How the prisoners are treated (whether rehabilitated or punished punitively) also correlates to society’s current popular views/politics on crimes. But, I don’t think that’s entirely true with regards to which crimes are more prevalent…that can be dependent on what sorts of crimes are currently on the radar, in the media, police etc.,

Sorry, I think I explained that in a very disjointed way!

Sara

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Prisons are reflective of society because they are indicative of a society's morals - what a society collectively deems justifiable for punishment. Likewise, it is indicative of society's failings. A prison's 'majority' population illustrates its' most common crimes. A majority number of any given class of crime underlies society's inability to adequately reprieve such an issue.

To look in Australian prisons, then, would equate to a confronting and upsetting conclusion regarding how we have evolved as a civil society, or, more specifically; how we have failed some of our society's most vulnerable: the Indigenous, the poor and disadvantaged, and those with mental illness and substance abuse problems.

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I think there is one major problem with our prison system in Australia, that offenders don't rehabilitate completely . Once released into society, job prospects are very slim, therefore ex-offenders resort to crime. This is very sad because immediate family members become victims of this vicious cycle. Children suffer major trauma and pain, and therefore become potential offenders.

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I think the quote by Dostoevsky relates to human
rights of a country as a whole; and that a country is only as strong as its
weakest link. In this instance, the weakest link in Australia would be the
offenders within its prisons. Prisons tend to house people of low
socio-economic status and other disadvantages and the treatment of people in
prison in Australia demonstrates the value of human life overall. For example,
in Australia, prisons are subject to service delivery standards including
providing opportunities for rehabilitation and participation in education and
work. Offenders are afforded basic human rights including meals, shelter,
contact with legal representatives and other visitors. By prisons treating
offenders - who are arguably at the worst stage of their life – in a humane and
hopeful way, it would lead to greater good overall. 

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I think the quote by Dostoevsky relates to human
rights of a country as a whole; and that a country is only as strong as its
weakest link. In this instance, the weakest link in Australia would be the
offenders within its prisons. Prisons tend to house people of low
socio-economic status and other disadvantages and the treatment of people in
prison in Australia demonstrates the value of human life overall. For example,
in Australia, prisons are subject to service delivery standards including
providing opportunities for rehabilitation and participation in education and
work. Offenders are afforded basic human rights including meals, shelter,
contact with legal representatives and other visitors. By prisons treating
offenders - who are arguably at the worst stage of their life – in a humane and
hopeful way, it would lead to greater good overall. 

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Sally Amos

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"The degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."

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"The degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."

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I believe Dostoevsky's quote means that by simply looking at the prison in a society one can gain a greater idea on how well the society works and functions and how effective the system is. It can depict what kind of society it is and how developed they are in the modern world by showing the types of crimes people are being imprisoned for and also the age and race of the people imprisoned. For example there may be a disproportionate amount of Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander people serving time which can show that the different treatments of them in the court system compared to a white male committing the same crime with a similar criminal background who receives a lesser or no sentence.

In Australia, reoffending is at its highest and therefore shows that the prisons are not always effective in deterring and rehabilitating offenders. By looking into the prisons in Australia, it shows the abundance of racial and ethnic minority groups that are serving time. This shows the flaws in the nature of the court system in properly sentencing offenders. There is also a need for better rehabilitation methods so offenders can reintegrate into society without being outcasted.

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This is another good point - here the discussion is around the key approaches to offending. So, based on these we can see the reflection of the norms in society! Do you believe that society is focusing more or not enough on the victim or offender? Why is that?

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I believe the quote from ‘Dostoevsky’ pertains to the way in which a particular society, acts or uses approaches toward individuals who commit crimes or who act against the ‘social norms of that society’. For instance, that society may lean toward a ‘retributive’ system for dealing with immoral or criminal individuals, or the societies’ ideals and beliefs may be more in line with or suited toward a ‘restitutive’ or ‘rehabilitative’ system, or even a system that incorporates some or all three type approaches toward criminality. Moreover, upon entering and spending time within a particular prison, this may reveal the type of system that that society depends on and the approach utilised, to treat, punish or rectify, incidences of, or individuals who are deemed to be criminal or immoral within that societies’ standards. Additionally, the prison environment may also give indication of past and present criminal trends (level of offences ‘and type), and provide source for statistical information as to the status, gender, age etc., of the type of individuals whom are the least/most likely to commit crimes, or be over or under represented within regards to that criminal justice system (corrections, or likes of). Lastly, it could be said that if encountering Australian prisons, it would suggest that our society prefers to adopt a ‘retributive’ system, where punishment is the key basis for dealing with those who act against the law or our societies’ norms. However, most citizens within our society would agree that our prisons’ may reveal a lack of‘rehabilitative’measures, and that although a fair proportion of offenders are punished, there is not enough concern where restitution for victims can be achieved appropriately.

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This is very important point, identifying the notion of 'civilised'. The cultures and society interpret such notions differently, so it is very important to consider the context! Now the question is what is the meaning of 'civilised' in Australia?

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Good point of view - discussing the facilities and the staff issues. It shows a completely different perspective. Do you believe as a society we can justify larger investments in prisons? Why? The response below addresses this question to an extent, but I just want to develop discussion within the current elections (if it makes sense).

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Good example - we should probably look at the extent and nature of Australian prisoners and the numbers would probably confirm this. Do you believe things have change recently, or at all? Are we capable of a better change as a society?

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The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.

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The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.

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This quote could be interpreted in a number of ways.
Firstly, entering a prison may give a snapshot of the prevalence of certain crimes within that particular society. Further, it may indicate the degree with which certain ethnicity's are accused and sentenced for crime which may indicate a problem racial profiling by authorities or a higher degree of participation in criminal activity and the prevalence of certain types of crime within ethnic groups.

Secondly, it goes to show how 'civilized' a society is by how is treats those seen as having the least to give. It reminds me of another quote by Malcolm S. Forbes who said "you can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." The same can be said with society and they way in which we treat and deal with our prisoners. In theory, the better they are treated, seen as having potential to better themselves and become valuable members of society, the more civilized a society may be viewed.

However, the notion of being 'civilized' is a societal construct and anyone failing to meet the norms could be seen as being uncivilized. Therefore the determination of civility would change throughout the world depending on where you are and who is analyzing them.

Angela Sgambaro

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“The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons”, what do you think this means? What do you think the Australian prisons say about Australian civilization?

Australian prisons are still using the old style of prison systems whereby prisoners are housed in small cells either singularly or with one or more prisoners depending on the prison.  They still have limited access to education systems and employment during the time of incarceration.  Our prison systems are antiquated and it appears that we have not learnt anything from other countries with respect to our prisons.  The USA is similar whereby it still has the death penalty and rehabilitation is not what prison is about it is only about punishment.  Historically prisons were about inflicting pain and torture and, not to the same degree, we still punish our prisoners in a similar way.  The prisons are overcrowded, reduced access to programs for offenders and a high rate of mental illness and suicides whilst incarcerated.

In Australia, mental hospitals were closed as they were expensive to run and the government did not provide adequate resources in hospitals to care for the mentally ill and so prisons became the next best place once an offender with a mental health issue committed a crime.  Prisons are not capable of looking after the mentally ill and they should not be housed in this environment.  Reoffending is the highest it has been in Australia so it is clear that punishment is not the answer.  Society expects some form of punishment must be applied to somebody who has broken the law but most offenders who go into prison come out worse so in many aspects they are punished twice.

A prison in Norway called Bastoy has a totally different viewpoint on punishment.  The prisoners on this island prison are respected, employed, trusted and educated to enable them to go back into society a better person than when they were incarcerated.  There are a limited number of places in this prison but everybody wants to go there for obvious reasons:  they can utilise the sauna, the swimming pool, the facilities like the dining room that looks and feels like a restaurant and most of all the guards and the staff treat them like they are humans.  The prisoners on Bastoy are murderers, sex offenders, drug smugglers and the like and not first time offenders or low rate crimes  Bastoy has the lowest reoffending rate globally so that says something about the system and the civilisation of Norway.  The Australian civilisation still says that punishment is what is needed and ignores basic human rights and respect for the offender.  There is a distinct barrier between the prison guards and the prisoners and, in some cases, this is necessary as some prisoners are dangerous and there is an element of awareness that a guard must have but perhaps if they were treated with some respect it may change the way the prisoner reacts to things by being treated equally.  Ultimately most offenders will be released back into civilisation in which they left and if they have not learnt anything from their time being incarcerated then it is a wasted experiment.

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Week 1: "The degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering it's prisons"

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Week 1: "The degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering it's prisons"

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My interpretation of this statement is that not only can we get an indication of the type of people that commit crimes as the current society and laws deem criminal and the type of crimes that are committed as well an indication to the number, it also allows us an insight into how those working in the prison system treat prisoners. Deaths in custody issues have given us an insight into discrimination practices that exist in the workforce. Under-staffing and minimal resources available could also be evident from one prison to another, and conditions within jails vary as older jails such as Bathurst compared to say Parklea can make a prison stay harsher for inmates in drafty cold cells. Lack of funding minimises access to medical and rehabilitation programes, puts undue pressure and risk on staff and as a results tension and frustration within these walls builds for all concerned and I feel this would be evident.
Sue

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Good points, especially by looking at various crimes and sex! What about if we consider ethnicity in this context?

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Week 1: "The degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering it's prisons"

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Week 1: "The degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering it's prisons"

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This quote above infers that you can tell a lot about the degree of civilisation in a particular society by just simply entering its prisons. It portrays what kind of society it is by what the particular prisoners are serving time in prison for. Such as, smaller crimes of home invasions to first degree murder. It also says a lot about society about what particular races and minority groups are actually in jail and how they are treated in society by other people. For example, there may be a lot more Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islanders who are specifically pinned for a certain crime compared to per se a white person who committed the same offence but may have received a different penalty or no penalty at all. It is a perfect example of an honest opinion about ones society and how it works.

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Week 1: "The degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering its prisons"

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Week 1: "The degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering its prisons"

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This can be taken to mean that entering the prisons of a particular society provide an individual with an honest snapshot of that society. The crimes that people commit portray how people in that society treat each other beneath the polite veneer of the society, when they do not abide by the regulation and laws that govern that society. Furthermore, it shows what types of people are being incarcerated in a particular society for committing crimes. Combined, this highlights the behaviour that is expected and how different types of people are viewed in a civilisation.
In 2015 in Australian prisons 92% of prisoners were men. It can be inferred from this that in Australian civilisation men are more likely to commit crimes than women or that men are more likely to be arrested and sentenced to incarceration than women. This shows that men and women are viewed differently in Australian civilisation, perhaps indicating that men are viewed more harshly than women or that they are expected to behave in a different way. Increasing rates of incarceration for women could indicate that they are increasingly being treated the same as men, or that their behaviour is deteriorating. Depending on which theory is correct it could be said that Australian society is becoming more civilised by viewing men and women as equal or that civilisation is deteriorating with the behaviour of individuals.
The most common offences for prisoners in Australian prisons (as of 2015) were acts intended to cause injury, illicit drug offences, sexual assault and unlawful entry with intent. It can be inferred from this that Australian civilisation is in fact, not wholly civilised. Furthermore, from this information it could be said that Australian civilisation is violent and lacking in self-restraint.

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