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1) EVIDENCE! Your comments should be directly tied to the text(s) whenever possible.
2) LISTEN! Respond directly to your classmates and expand/questions/challenge. Comments should be connected to what others are saying. It's a conversation, not a monologue.
3) SHARE THE FLOOR! Bring others into the conversation. Make room for all voices.

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Another example of the different kind of perspective about death is the Hyolmo Buddhists in Nepal, Dr. Hannig in Talking About Death in America wrote "among Hylomo Buddhists in Nepal, dying is regarded as an intricate art to be learned." which I feel relates to what Lauren was saying about how in America, people aren't raised in an environment which views death in a positive light.

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RE: Lauren Set A Question 1 - Tyler Van Name

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RE: Lauren Set A Question 1 - Tyler Van Name

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I like what Lauren said about the negativity Americans associate with death. I can also connect this to Cole Imperi's podcast because she explains this phenomenon in more detail. Imperi says that death is not something to fear, but rather something that should be accepted and respected. In other cultures, death is even celebrated! Mexico's Dia De Las Muertos is an example of this. Charlotte Perkins Gilman said this on the topic of the fear of death:

"Death? Why fuss about death? Use your imagination; try to visualize a world without death! Death is the essential condition of life, not an evil."

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I liked the connection with the funeral you went to and how it was way different than most funerals since it was a celebration rather than a mourning. I think that has a lot to do with one's upbringing and faith/traditions.

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I also thought this question related to the podcast. The way Americans deal with death is affected by religion, culture, politics, and family dynamics. In the podcast, they talk about how Catholics say they are either going up or down. Some say nothing happens when you die, or you either go to heaven or hell. Sometimes religion affects whether people are scared of dying or not.

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I agree and think there have been several stories and instances where we have analyzed horror not being the death of a character, but the consequence of the events of the story. This immediately made me think about "The Masque of a Red Death" and the consequences Prince Prospero faced when he was face to face with the Red Death. In the end, Red Death ultimately wins the lives of those it takes. No matter what the people did to try to escape death, death doesn't discriminate and is inevitable went to are faced with it. Prospero does not want to face death. He deliberately flees it with his followers and tries not to think about it at all, so he can revel in the good times. It was not the horror of his death but the way it happened that made this story truly macabre. "And now was acknowledged the presence of the Red Death. He had come like a thief in the night. " (Poe Masque of a Red Death)

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(side note: the anonymous post titled "re: Davis" was also me)

I agree with your point on how Lovecraft and Hawthorne "laid a foundation" for the rest of the Macabre literature authors down the road. Going off of that, I think their stories used a lot more macabre elements and scarier themes, but the more modern Macabre authors used less macabre elements and they created more deeper meanings within their stories.

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I agree with your point, that different cultures can change the way that death is perceived. I liked your comparison of the celebration of death with the Day of the Dead and the ways culture impacts the way that people view and react to death. The way we react to death in America is directly contrasting to the way it is celebrated in Mexico because we typically see death and funerals in America as very heavy and depressing. I have never experienced death or a funeral that had a celebratory feeling, it has always been very heavy and hard to handle. It seems very unnatural and odd for me to think about death as a celebration of death rather than a hard, time of grief. I think about death as a default: very sad, heavy, sensitive, and sometimes traumatizing. It is interesting to think about the ways death is depicted in different cultures because they are so different from the ways that I think about death or even experienced death in my life.

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Re: Christopher/Kenzie Set A Question 2 - Tyler Van Name

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Re: Christopher/Kenzie Set A Question 2 - Tyler Van Name

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I like what Christopher said about Poe/Hawthorne setting the "foundation" for the gothic style. I would continue and say that Jackson and O'Connor modernized this gothic style by creating realistic, domestic settings. For example, Shirley Jackson wrote about a seemingly mundane southern town in her work "The Renegade." On the other hand, Poe wrote about castles and more mythical areas in his "Masque of the Red Death." The same conceptions of horror and macabre are present in Jackon and O'Connor's works, but the setting and presentation of this horror are more modern when compared to Poe/Hawthorne's works.

Relevant quote from "The Renegade" describing the setting of the story:
"Mrs. Walpole, with one eye on the clock and the other on the kitchen window past which the school bus would come in a matter of minutes, felt the unreasonable irritation that comes with being late on a school morning, the wading-through-molasses feeling of trying to hurry children.” (p.66)

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I feel like her point about women's dependency and the cycle of a struggle for independence could be emphasized with this piece of evidence from the Yellow Wallpaper : "I get unreasonably angry with John sometimes. I'm sure I never used to be so sensitive, I think it is due to this nervous condition." At first, the narrator knows and states what she knows will make her feel better, then, as this piece of evidence shows, because of her husband and the dependency she has of him, she begins to think and agree with his authority over her.

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I agree with what Christopher said about how Poe and Hawthorne laid the foundation and made the macabre lit a more popular style of writing. And how Jackson and O'Connor modernized it.
I like what Kenzie said about how Jackson and O'Connor modernized it through daily horror through the family trips and the society of the southern. In Jackson's story she shows the struggle and daily horror of living in the country after being city folk. She says, “...hes not a traitor or a bad man by country standards…” (pg 74) which relates back to how the standards of city and country people are different

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I liked the connection between O'Connor and Jackson back to Poe and Hawthorne. O'Connor and Jackson both used more of a "normal" style of setting and character within their stories. They were normal people in normal places rather than being in an abandoned place with a mad scientist, possessive wife, haunting people beyond the grave etc; O'Connor & Jackson used a more modern approach. "They were still city folk and would probably always be city fold, people who owned a chicken-killing dog, people who washed on Tuesday, people who were not able to fend for themselves against the limited world of earth and food and weather that the country folk took so much for granted." This seems like a normal story until the dialogue between the neighbors and townspeople comes into play.

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I like what you pointed out about the lack of female characters within the older set of macabre stories, and how the more modern stories have more female characters with bigger roles. I think this is because after the older stories that we read were written, the feminist movement started, and ever since then, there were many more female characters in these macabre stories. Therefore, I think the feminist movement and femininity in general played an important role in the increase of important female characters in the stories.

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I came to a similar conclusion about how Jackson and O'Connor have modernized macabre literature by including a deeper sense of morality and realistic struggles for the women in the stories. In Poe's story, Georgiana says "Danger is nothing to me: for life... is a burthen which I would fling down with joy," which is a shallow and naive sentiment, and really the only concerns Georgiana has is about how her husband views her, while Mrs. Walpole has deeper conflicting feelings, as you mentioned too. The text states," Mrs. Walpole, her mind full of unfinished sentences that began, 'Don't you think other people ever have any feelings or--" which shows that a wife can have her own thoughts which even conflict or distaste her husband.

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I love this piece of evidence you used to connect to this co-dependency that she feels toward her husband. I want to connect this to the way The Yellow Wallpaper was one of the first pieces of feminist literature and how influential it was for this time period. The way that Jane is set in this baby nursery and is crawling symbolizes the way the husband sees her as this small child with no real ideas or opinions, and someone that needed to be controlled and taken care of. He would call her "silly little goose” and "little girl" which I think truly shows the way that the husband views her, as this child that needs someone to take care of her. At the end of the story she says, “I don't know why I should write this. I don't want to. I don't feel able. And I know John would think it absurd. But I must say what I feel and think in some way - it is such a relief ! absurd. But I must say what I feel and think in some way - it is such a relief.” I think this was extremely powerful and brave for her to do, especially during this time period which was very sexist. She is showing her desire to almost be "set free" from her husband, have her own ideas, and in this case, write what she wants without being restricted by her husband.

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I like how lauren said that in these stories is what up to when the reader realizes something is off. In the yellow wallpaper is was a gradual discovery of what was wrong. In William Wilson you know from the first line that something is off from when he says, "Let me call myself, for the moment, William Wilson." So starting off we have this idea that he is not always THE William Wilson, but in the present he is. But in the yellow wallpaper we slowly see how the narrator is seeing herself in the wallpaper. The first descriptions of the wallpaper dont make you think anything crazy but as they go on you know that something is wrong. As the wallpaper gets worse we know that is when she is getting worse

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RE: Lauren Set A Question 3 - Tyler Van Name

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RE: Lauren Set A Question 3 - Tyler Van Name

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I like what Lauren said about the concept of "something being off." In "The Yellow Wallpaper," the wallpaper is a metaphor for the wife's mental state and how it is declining. The narrator grows closer and closer to madness as she is forced to stay confined with the wallpaper. In "William Wilson," the doppelganger is a representation of the morally correct side of William Wilson. From this, it would be reasonable to conclude that these authors represent character's mental states through imagery, metaphors, and symbolism. Here is a quote from "The Yellow Wallpaper" which talks about the relationship between the wallpaper and the wife's relationship with her husband:

"I don't like our room a bit. I wanted one down-stairs that opened on the piazza and had roses all over the window, and such pretty old-fashioned chintz curtains! But John would not hear of it. He is very careful and loving, and hardly lets me stir without special direction. I have a schedule prescription for each hour in the day; he takes all care from me, and so I feel basely ungrateful not to value it more."

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I think that the "continuous" and "gradual" display of subtle hints about the narrator's mental illness is also attributed to the fact that in comparison, William Wilson is much less self-aware of his disconnection from reality. For example, the narrator in the Yellow Wallpaper mentions multiple times "one's own husband, assures friends and relatives that there is really nothing the matter with one but temporary nervous depression", showing that the narrator is aware that there is a mental disorder disrupting her life, disconnecting her from her family and reality. However, in William Wilson, he narrates in a way that implies he is much less aware that he is disconnecting from reality. Poe writes, "It was Wislon: but now it was my own voice I heard, as he said 'I have lost. Yet from now on you are also dead..." and even in his realization that he is connected to the doppleganger, he still refers to it as 'him' and not 'I' or 'me'. The continuous hints that the narrator is disconnected from reality is illustrated a lot less in William Wilson than the Yellow Wallpaper.

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I liked your comparison to William Wilson and The Yellow Wallpaper and that William Wilson seeing himself on multiple occaions is just like the narrator in The Yellow Wallpaper seeing herself in the wallpaper. To add on, I think that both characters have a mental illness, and they might even have the same one, which I think would be schizophrenia because both experience episodes where they are violent and see things that aren't there.

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I also think that detail is very present in the story "The Yellow Wallpaper". I think that was strategic for the writer similar to "William Wilson" by Edgar Allen Poe. It is no secret these stories could be strongly connected and point to diagnoses of mental health disorders such as schizophrenia and postpartum depression. I think to emphasize this both writers used strong descriptive language and constant redundant phrases to show the readers the state of mind and persona of the character present. These stories were in a way revolutionary because they talked about mental health at a time were it was not commonly discussed openly. These descriptive details and language were important parts of the text. In "The Yellow Wallpaper" the narrator constantly describes the yellow wallpaper and the way it is so strongly effecting her. "horrid" "haunted" As she rips the paper off the walls and is driven mad.

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I mostly agree with your statement that evil behavior is primarily caused by nuture rather than nature because nature is more of a choice while nuture is taught and almost forced. However, I would like to point out that an example of nature being the cause of evil behavior is the dog, Lady, in The Renegade. Lady isn't taught to kill animals, she just kills the chickens because that's what most dogs would do in the situation.

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I disagree with what Kenzie and others say because I think nature and nurture both cause evil/aberrant behavior. “‘Nature’ means innate biological factors (namely genetics), while ‘nurture’ can refer to upbringing or life experience more generally.” Through the stories, I think we see a mix of both. For example, In O’Connor’s story, A Good Man is Hard to Find, the Misfit is an example of being evil due to nurture. He says, “I call myself The Misfit, because I cant make what all I done wrong fit what all I gone through in punishment.” (pg. 131). In Lovecraft’s story, The Thing on the Doorstep, Asenath is an example of being evil due to nature. Her father possesses her body and then she possesses Edward. “Asenath’s case was aggravated by the fact that she was Ephriam Waite’s daughter” (pg 2).

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RE: Kenzie Set A Question 4 - Tyler Van Name

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RE: Kenzie Set A Question 4 - Tyler Van Name

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I like what Kenzie said about nurture being the primary cause of "abberant behavior." However, I would disagree with this because the Misfit in "A Good Man is Hard to Find" was raised in a very good family but made some unfortunate decisions which lead to his imprisonment. The Misfit admins to being a 'bad kid' and points out how good his parents were to him. Because of this, I would argue that both nature AND nurture may result in evil/abberant behavior. Here is a relevant quote from "A Good Man is Hard to Find" about this situation:

"‘My daddy said he would shoot me if I didn’t keep the law, but he died before he got the chance,’ The Misfit said. ‘I was glad he died before he had a chance to shoot me. He would of shot me just as cheerful as not.’"

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I agree with Kate in saying that women are controlled by their husbands. Connecting to the time, most people did not know about post-partum depression since in 1829 that illness was not diagnosed. Women were not taught about these feeling during that time, nor were they told they could have different feleings. She is treated as a child and not allowed to exert her feelings through her writing, making her condition worse. Charlotte Gilman also, as a person, was very feminist and having experienced post-partum depression and other mental issues surrounding isolation, she gained hate towards the male-driven perspectives of society at that time. The Yellow Wallpaper elevates the feeling a woman goes through when being controlled by a man.

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i really like his quote showing how the narrator in the yellow wallpaper's husband treats her like a child. From all of her work about women's rights and feminism, i think it was a great quote to bring out to show her view about the topic of "ill" women. Female hysteria was a large problem and overdiagnosed, the narrator knows what she needs but she is shut down constantly being forced to hide her journal like a kid,

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I like how scarlett mentioned the patriacal roles that women and men shared during the times of Jackson, and O'Conner. I would agree that if these writings were not written by women, we would not be able to see the perspective of emotions from a women. Since at the time, these emotions might be seen as bthersome and dramatic. These writings being feminist influences in this time expresses how women feel with these roles.

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To add on to Tyler's idea of how women are a large contribution to the Macabre genre, I believe that women are the background characters in the majority of the stories. Through this feminist lens that was brought in by the renegade, we continue to see the growth of women and how their mental illness can interact with the environment around them.

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I agree with Scarlett when she was talking about how since the author of "The Renegade" was female that the protagonist was female and gave us a glimpse of what living in that time period was difficult and forced women into these dependent roles where their only job was to do what the man said. The patriarchal authority in each story is prevalent and that it made living a free life very hard. It forced women to lived in a way society wanted them to live rather than a life they wanted to live.

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His ideas of how the husband is ignorant I believe are a big a contribution to womens mental health. While her husband was ignoring her, her mental health continued to go down hill and therefore, her husband began to become afraid of her by the end of the story.

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I would agree with the part that the narrator would tell the wife what to do like a child. And that the idea of standing up for what you believe in is a feminist trait that we saw in the renegade. I think that this is a very strong point as she was going against the majority as a woman which I see as being a very strong feminist. As well the quote that you used shows that she knows that she is not making much progress. I also think that the ending of this story can go along with your statement "Mrs.Walpole closed her eyes suddenly feeling the harsh hands pulling her down. The sharp points closing in on her throat." As this shows more that she realized that her fight is not working. But overall Really good and strong point that I would agree with as we see this feminist trait of her standing up.

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I really like how adeline mentioned the wife in the Yellow Wallpaper crawling around in the nursery. I think this mirrors how the husband makes decisions for her, keeps her in the room, and makes her follow his rules, like a child would be treted. This also connects to the roles at the time, where women were not listened to and the man's interest was put above the "patients" or the womens feelings. Cnnecting this bakc to all of the writing we have read with female characters. The Renegade higlights how Mrs. Walpole had empathy towards the dog, while all of the men in this story were violent and aggressive towards the dog rather than taking into account a womens feelings. Like how childrens feelings are overlooked, since adult or "people of power" would have more rational solutions.

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I agree with Kate when she was discussing post party depression because it was so less talked about. Im sure part of the reason John locked her up because as a physician she may have been at a lost of how to react to these symptoms. When thinking about it I cam to the conclusion that the reason John locked her up and felt the need to treat her like a literal child was because of fear. It felt easier to lock her up and not deal with her rather then truly try to understand.

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I like his example of the husband viewing the wife a a child. I Think his quote is a good example of how woman's mental health was viewed back then. This treating her like a child causes her to act like a child such a crawling around and hiding her journal. Instead of fixing the original problem (postpartum depression) they locked her away and treated her like a child ultimately worsening her condition. all because of the stigma against women suffering from similar conditions

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I would strongly agree with the point on how women were supposed to be seen and how their persona was supposed to be. I think that this has to do with the current society at the time these novels were written as the current society had effects on the authors and how they portrayed women in their stories.

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"trapped in the environment" from Emi's evidence of the renegade, I feel as her comment of Mrs. Walpole being trapped in the countryside outside of the city helps convey women's struggle of living in an environment in which men are dominant.

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I agreed with piper how this literature had pretty subtle parts of the text, like in the renegade when Mrs. Walpole is trying to defend the dog to the townspeople, she is timid and explains how the dog only did it once, despite being horrified and disgusted in the moment. Similarly, in the Yellow Wallpaper, she is dismissed and closed away, despite knowing what she needs. both of these women knew what they wanted to do and at the same time, were given no agency in their lives.

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I had the same thought as scarlett about how the time periods most of these writings were written show are examples of real life issues. SHe said how Masque of the Red Death relates to the blackdeath as well as some of the other diseases.

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I noticed how he brought group A into the discussion by mentioning evidence from Jackson's writing and The Masque of the Red Death. He talks about how the construction of the description of the castle sets a feeling of the perverse. Scarlett adds onto this through mentioning the black plague which I agree with to the extent in which we see horrid diseases including Poe's wife dying of a disease. The diseases in the Macabre genre not only help set the scene for an old and victorian style in our older stories we've read

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I really liked how he pointed out how Poe wrote so much about disease being the horror ( like masque of the red death and Annabelle Lee) because of how much disease had impacted his life. I hadn't have thought of how much it really did impact him and it was possible this was his outlet of coping with the trauma of so much loss due to disease. I wonder what Poe would have thought of Covid 19?

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I found what Tyler said about the prevalence of disease in Poe's work to be very interesting. He mentioned that Poe dealt with disease in his own life and so when he wrote about it, he was able to make it feel real because it was real to him. Furthermore, when Adeline added on about Covid and how we reacted to it further adds to his argument of disease being a real thing and how dangerous it really is, making it a very good them to put in macabre.

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I definitely agree with Scarlett's point that the time in which the stories were written effects different types of death. for example in one of the stories there is death form a czar crash which is very telling of its more modern setting. Whereas one in of the other stories Poe's wife dies from tuberculosis which was a very common way people died in his time

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I would agree with y'all about how in the red mask has a more black death and medieval time theme as to where the later stories like a good man are hard to find and the renegade we see a more southern modern story in the south that comes with time. I also notice the difference in literature between these stories as there is a more modern dialect in a good man is hard to find.

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Kate mentioned how O'Conner and Jackson were more modern writers compared to the rest of the ther authors weve read. We notice how the horror and gore has mellowed out lately. When reading Poe's stories there is very indetail descriptions of the gruesome scenes, while in The Renegade or The Yellow Wallpaper. But I would like to add how each of these stories shows death and gore in their own way, even if it isn't very shocking to the reader.

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I agree with his comment on how these modernized stories shine more light on the feminine lens of these stories, kind of like Hope said, women are slowly brought into these stories to connect us to the modern reality.

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I would agree with the statement that the later stories showed more feminism. As our group talked about as well, the latter stories brought a more feminist precese giving women a more role than just being there and getting abused. We really saw this once we started reading the feminist writing which was very good.

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I agree with Kate, but my answer is kind of mixed. Poe uses the perverse as a way of saying letting our impulses get the best of us. The perverse can be self destructive, and harm others. I think the perverse can get the best of our mind, because it is inescapable. But it goes back to morals and upbringing if you act on these negative thoughts from the perverse. If you were raised in a polite society, I think you would try everything to mask the fact that you were giving into the perverse.

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I can see where emi connects scientific aspects and macabre aspects, I really think that Hawthorne does communicate this idea through psychological aspects. When we look at The Birthmark, the idea of perfection takes over the husband in which he makes the wife get rid of it through a potion, this potion ends up killing her and therefore, wraps back around to how scientific aspects and macabre aspects intersect along with the lines of feminism as mentioned yesterday.

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I think the perverse is shown in different ways, intentional or instinctual. I agree with him when he mentions that the perverse feeling overtook him, causing his obsession with the birthmark. We also see the perverse as a cultural instinct as well. Depending on where you come from or your "nurture" there is a form of excuse for feeling a certain way or doing something a certain way. We see in the Renegade that the townspeople talk about dealing with the dog in a way that is normal to them, but when someone from another culture is exposed to that, it is interpreted as violent.

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I like his argument that the birthmark itself perverted Aylmer. It reminds me of the Necronomicon from H.P. Lovecraft's story and how it perverted the man.

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I definitely agree with Emi. Being prone to the perverse seems to be an element of Macabre. I understand what Tyler is trying to say that not all the authors use it as a technique, but it has shown up in quite a few of the stories we read.

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I agreed with what she was saying when talking about how in macabre that the perverse is way more prone to happen because something bad does need to happen in order for the story to be macabre. So even though the perverse is within all of us, maybe it can be more seen in macabre rather than in everyday life. However, one could also argue that the perverse is within all of us, and just because it happens in macabre, doesn't mean it only happens in macabre. In fact, since the stories written for macabre are sometimes made to feel realistic, an argument could be made here that the perverse does tend to get the best of us.

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I agree with the point that the characters become perverse when put into a perverse situation. As you talked about with the tale tell heart, the heartbeat put him into a perverse situation. Also thought it was a really strong point saying that the authors put their characters into perverse situations which I would agree with completely as we see that throughout the stories as it adds a very complex piece to the story. Very strong point I would agree that theses characters are driven into perverse situations as I believe that you can add that the misfit is as well as he was brought into theses bad crimes.

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I completely agree that religion and where you grow up affect your relationship with death. Adeline mentioned how there is a difference in how death is dealt with in different countries. I think being a product of your environment and living out what you are taught. Children from a young age are taught through pictures, books, movies, etc. that death is scary and something to be afraid of, and to live life to the fullest or it's a waste. I think that since it is such a taboo subject and such a difficult topic to teach and understand from a young age in America, the pandemic of fear continues.

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Tyler said culture, religion, and where they live are the most important factors to determine how people react. I agree but also think that upbringing or how you were raised can effect it.

Age: Older people may embrace death as a normal part of life, but younger people may be more frightened of or avoid the subject.

Ethnicity: People of different cultures may approach the subject differently as a result of the different ideas and practices that cultures have around death and dying.

Faith tradition: Religious practices and beliefs, such as views toward euthanasia or assisted suicide, rituals surrounding death, and beliefs about an afterlife, can have a significant impact on how people view death and dying.

Upbringing: Personal experiences, as well as family and community views toward death and dying

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I understand where Tyler is coming from when he says that the place, the setting, and the time period will always impact the effect of mourning. I've noticed in the time period in which these stories were written that most deaths are horrid which is kind of what Emi was saying about how in these stories, the characters are prone to this perverse setting.

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I agreed with what Alastair was saying about the afterlife, specifically how it can be seen as a celebration of life rather than a painful experience. Death is a very hard topic to talk about because it invokes painful emotions and memories. Pain is something that humans subconsciously try to avoid at all costs. So to see something that some find to be a painful experience as a celebration of life is very powerful and is a way to have a better outlook on life. By not living in fear, you are able to embrace the world and live your life to the fullest.

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I really like the point of age has a big factor in how we see death. Depending on our age will affect how we see death. If we are younger and experience death it will be a lot more traumatizing and hard to understand rather than we are more mature and older in life. I also thought Adeline made a great point that when a younger person dies it's sadder and devastating as they did not get the live their whole life. Rather when someone older passes away it is more a celebration of a life that they got to live where when younger they did not get to live that life.

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I think the age is an interesting point to bring up. I almost think gender could be a factor in this as well. Men are subjected to suppress their emotions, while women are allowed to soak in sadness. I wonder how this effects the inner workings on how someone processes death women vs man?

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While I agree with his point that culture, religion, and geography are big factors in how someone views death I believe that he missed one big one. I believe that ones experience with death in their life drastically effects how they view it. If someone is a mortician then they have a lot of experience with death so they can become somewhat desensitized. Whereas a and older person might see it as a peaceful end to a journey based on the experience of people their age dying. Another example could be like my sister When she was five she had to go through the death of my brother and she associated it with choking so for months she wouldn't eat any solid food. This traumatic experience of death still effects the way she thinks today where she is hypersensitive to medical conditions.

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the growing knowledge of mental health affected how authors wrote. Quote that sticks out to me is

"I believe that congenial work, with excitement and change, would do me good. But what is one to do? I did write for a while in spite of them; but it does exhaust me a good deal—having to be so sly about it, or else meet with heavy opposition."

In the yellow wallpaper, she knows what she wants, but she is not giving the resources she needs.

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re: response to Kenzie Set A Question 4 (Tyler Van Name) - Alastair

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re: response to Kenzie Set A Question 4 (Tyler Van Name) - Alastair

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I disagree with your claim that evil behavior can result from nature and/or nurture. I liked how you used the example of The Misfit to perfectly dissect Kenzie's claim, but your wording says, "Kenzie said... nurture [is]... the primary cause of 'aberrant behavior'". It is the primary cause, not every cause, leaving leeway for the perverse nature to slide in. You make a strong point about The Misfit coming from an evil nature, which is valid, but he is an exception to the general ruling of aberrant behavior coming from nurture circumstances.
A good example of both of them in one character is the narrator from E. A. Poe's The Tell-Tale Heart. From the start he was perverse by nature, but the housing situation he was in with the old man allowed that nature to further nurture into a greater obsession, thus acting as a bridge between both sides. He likely had skitsophrenia before this obsession, but it grew exponentially as he grew to hate the pale blue eye. Here is aa relevant quote from "The Tell-Tale Heart" about this character trait:

"It is impossible to say how first the idea entered my brain; but once it was conceived, it haunted me day and night. ... I made up my mind to take the life of the old man, and thus rid myself of the eye forever." (Poe par. 2)