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Double Empathy: Why Autistic People Are Often Misunderstood

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Autism affects how someone makes sense of the world around them. About 1–2% of people are autistic. You might have an autistic classmate or family member, or maybe you are autistic. Autistic people might communicate differently than people who are not autistic. This means that it can be difficult fo…

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Alcorn, A.M., Fletcher-Watson, S., McGeown, S., Murray, F., Aitken, D., Peacock, L.J.J., & Mandy, W. (2022). Learning About Neurodiversity at School: A resource pack for primary school teachers and pupils. University of Edinburgh. https://salvesen-research.ed.ac.uk/leans
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Learning About Neurodiversity at School (LEANS)

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A free programme for mainstream primary schools to introduce pupils aged 8-11 years to the concept of neurodiversity, and how it impacts our experiences at school.

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NEST (NEurodivergent peer Support Toolkit) | Salvesen Mindroom Research Centre | Salvesen Mindroom Research Centre

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NEST (NEurodivergent peer Support Toolkit) is a suite of materials to facilitate peer support for neurodivergent young people in mainstream secondary schools. The toolkit has been co-created by researchers at the University of Edinburgh, neurodivergent young people and a neurodiverse group of adults who work with neurodivergent young people.

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Podcast Episode · The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast · 09/07/2025 · 44m

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Holly Sutherland - Understanding Autistic Communication

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Podcast Episode · The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast · 06/05/2025 · 46m

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For a long time, our understanding of autistic communication was based on assumptions made by non-autistic researchers. In this podcast, we chat to autistic researcher, Gemma Williams about her neurodiversity-affirming approach to communication.

To find out more about Gemma's book, visit: https://pavpub.com/health-and-social-care/health-autism/understanding-others-in-a-neurodiverse-world-a-radical-perspective-on-communication-and-shared-meaning?srsltid=AfmBOop9_uw9zqqjqGaWZ13uDPJvFbpM4h-iwQDJdNEip49dubFUbbCI

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Understanding Autistic Communication with Gemma Williams

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For a long time, our understanding of autistic communication was based on assumptions made by non-autistic researchers. In this podcast, we chat to autistic res

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Double Empathy is a theory that many believe is central to understanding autistic experience. In this episode we chat to Dr Damian Milton, the autistic researcher and theorist who developed the theory. We discuss what Double Empathy means for other theories of autism and how it can shape practical supports.

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Double Empathy is a theory that many believe is central to understanding autistic experience. In this episode we chat to Dr Damian Milton, the autistic research

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Eve McIvor-Makaton Master - The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast

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Non-speaking Awareness Day falls next week. On the podcast, we’re celebrating a young woman who is using Makaton to support young people who speak few or no words. Eve McIvor has Down Syndrome and is autistic. She’s also a Makaton Master bringing…

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Dr Alyssa Alcorn Podcast - The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast

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Dr Alyssa Alcorn joins us on this week’s podcast. Alyssa presented at the Middletown Conference to a packed room. She joined the podcast to talk about the neurodiversity-affirming LEANS Project for primary schools

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Understanding Assistive Technology & AAC with CJay Smith - The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast

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In the latest Middletown Podcast, we chat to CJay Smith, Assistive Technology and Communication Specialist with Neurodiversity Ireland. CJay brings their expertise and lived experience to share their knowledge on the benefits of technology and myt…

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Welcome to the Middletown Podcast. I'm Kat Hughes, I'm a researcher at Middletown, and I'm also autistic. In this episode, I chat to Grania Warren. Granny is a neurodiversion play therapist who takes a gentle, compassionate approach to her work with young people and their families. She's created a resource that focuses on building authentic connection and offers a brilliant alternative to all of those resources that are focused on enforcing social expectations and training social skills. A vendor perspective, fascinating. And I think it's so important that professionals of all sorts have a chance to come together and discuss traditions and assumptions that need to be challenged. I was delighted to have a chance to pick her brain. I hope you enjoy our chat. Grania, it's so lovely to have you on the podcast. I'm actually delighted to have a chance to chat with you. And I know you had some thoughts around whether or not you wanted to take part in the podcast.

Yeah, I'm always very, very cautious about who I collaborate with. It's really, really important to me that who I do kind of work with or collaborate with are like genuinely neurofarming. But I've had many open, very open conversations with you about it. And yeah, I just felt quite confident going forward that it's heading in the right direction. Do you know? And I'm I'm very pleased to be part of that conversation.

Right. And we are absolutely delighted to have a chance to talk to you because you put out, amongst your amazing work, you put out a beautiful resource that focuses on authentic social connection. So I want to start by asking you what exactly do you mean by authentic social connection?

Okay, thank you, first of all. Um, so I want to say right from the start that I don't believe any child, especially an autistic child, needs social skills training. It's incredibly, incredibly harmful. Um because what I see so often, both my work and in the wider messaging around social interaction is the pressure on children to be social in a way that pleases other people. And then we call it social skills. But really, what we often mean is can this child act in a way that feels familiar or comfortable to the adults or peers around them? So at the end of the day, it's actually all just about performance. It's not authentic. So authentic social connection for me flips that completely. It's about connection that comes from within. It feels safe, natural, and meaningful to the child, not something that they have to perform. And it obviously looks different for every child as well. So one might light up when they get to info share about dinosaurs. Um, another might not want to talk at all, but will sit beside you doing their own thing. And that's still connection and it's still closeness. But the trouble is that those kind of connections often go unnoticed, or worse, they're labeled as lacking. And that breaks my heart because I've worked with so many children who have the most beautiful ways of relating. And they've been told over and over again that they're getting it wrong. And when they hear that often enough, they start to believe it. They start to shrink their natural instincts, and that's when we see masking, burnout, and disconnection, and not just from others, but even more importantly from themselves. So this resource is really about inviting adults to zoom out and to rethink what connection can look like. It's not a checklist, it's not a set of rules, it's a real a relationship. And every child deserves relationships where they feel seen, accepted, and free to show up exactly as they are.

That's gorgeous. And I'm delighted that right from the start, you've you've mentioned how social skills training isn't something that we should be aspiring to, because I absolutely agree. It's something that makes me incredibly uncomfortable and is incredibly negative. And even the the idea of social skills, the concept of it being a skill is horrifying to me because we all are individuals and we all socialize in our own way. So yeah, I'm delighted. We're going to talk about it a bit more, but I'm delighted that already we've said it.

Yeah, it just doesn't make sense to me. I can't make it make sense to me how someone can have skills in socializing with other people.

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. Um and what was it that made you want to focus on how we think about interaction?

Hmm. I saw, as you said already, like not only is the current approach just not sitting right at me, um, it's actually like filling me with dread. It's absolutely awful. I keep seeing referrals come true for things like social like difficulties or struggles with friendships. And then I observe these children and they're absolutely connecting, just not in ways that adults were expected or taught to look for. So one example that comes to mind, and I've seen this kind of thing like so much in my line of work, is a child who might not say much or might not make that much eye contact, and they might spend their time lining up cars or sorting things in a particular way. And to an adult unfamiliar with neurodivergent ways of connecting, that might look like disinterest or disengagement. But then something small happens, like the child making space for another person to join their play or placing a favorite object near them. And you realize that this is connection. It's quiet, it's subtle, but it's very, very intentional. That child is saying in their own way, I see you and I'm inviting you in. And then the heartbreaking thing is that in those moments, it often goes unrecognized. That child might still be described as socially delayed or lacking interaction, but the connection was there, it was just completely unnoticed. And then that disconnect between what's really happening and how it's interpreted is exactly why I wanted to focus on this. We've made social interaction into something narrow and performative. And if a child doesn't perform those things, we jump to intervention instead of asking, wait, is there another way this child might be connecting? And are we even using the right lens? So when we shift that lens and when we stop focusing on how a child should interact and start tuning into how they actually do, we start seeing things differently. We stop pathologizing and start understanding. And that creates space for children to be in a relationship in ways that feels good to them and not forced artificial.

That's gorgeous, absolutely. And one of the lovely things about the resource is that you talk about how all children can potentially benefit from support with relationship building. Why was it important to you to really emphasize that it is all children?

Oh, yeah, that was like a very deliberate um choice because I think we unintentionally do harm when we frame social connection as something that only autistic or neurodivergent children need support. So that language, like these children need social skills help, it sets up a false divide. It positions one group as the problem and then the other group as the benchmark. And that's just not reflective of reality. Children who are from marginalized communities, those with trauma histories, disabilities, non-traditional families, they all have their own ways of connecting. When we allow space flat, we're creating a more respectful and inclusive environment for everyone. So all children, every single one of them, are navigating relationships in a world that can be confusing, inconsistent, and often unkind. And none of that is exclusive to neurodivergence. So when we say this is a resource for understanding different ways of connecting, what we're really doing is opening up space for everyone. We're saying there isn't one right way to be in a relationship with others. And we all, not just autistic children, benefit from environments that are curious, patient, and respectful of difference. And then the other thing I want to say here is that we need to be really mindful about how we talk about inclusion. True inclusion isn't about making autistic children fit in better with the group. It's about helping the group to understand and value the range of ways people connect. And that's why this resource focuses on the adults first, actually. Um, because when we shift our mindset, when we stop treating differences as a deficit, that's when we start creating relationships that actually feel good to everyone.

Perfect. Yeah, that is really, really lovely and so very important. And sort of on on the back of that, you talk about the idea of harmful neuronormative expectations that can be sort of placed on people. And so my first question is how would you define those expectations? And then following that, what are some of the harms that that might be related to them?

Yeah, I mean, like in neuron this, I mean, like I could on for hours about this because it's like, you know, there's so many layers. But neuronormative social expectations are basically the unspoken rules about how we think people should interact. And what people probably don't realize enough is that they're usually based on dominant Western neurotypical ideals. So things like making eye contact, having back-forth conversations, smiling at the right time, not interrupting, responding quickly when someone speaks to you. These are things many of us were taught as just basic good manners, but they're not universal and they don't account for cultural differences. Um that's something we really need to be mindful of because being autistic is a culture. So that straight away is a difference. And they're not always accessible or comfortable for every person. And now the issue isn't that those behaviors exist in the first place. The issue is that we've decided that they're the standard and that if a child doesn't naturally do them, something must be wrong with the child. And that's where the harm begins. Because what happens is the child starts getting subtle and actually most of the time very, very obvious messages that they're not, you know, they're not right. Um, and then they learn, they learn that in order to be accepted, they have to adjust who they are. So then they begin to mask, to copy scripts, to force eye contact, to suppress their stims, to smile even when they're overwhelmed. And for a while, it might look like it's working. Adults might say they're improving socially, but underneath that, um, the child is using an enormous amount of energy to perform. And over time, that takes a toll. It leads to exhaustion, anxiety, burnout, and in a lot of cases, complete disconnection from their own identity. I've had young people say things like, I don't even know who I am anymore, because I've been trying so hard to be what other people want me to be. And that is not a social issue, that's a well-being crisis. Um, one of the most heartbreaking harms I hear about um both from neurodivergent children and adults is loneliness. Um, it's incredibly lonely when you're not truly seen, not seen as the person you really are. And when children perform expected social skills, they miss out on genuine, authentic friendships. And how could they not? The connections that they're that they are making are fake because they're based on a version of themselves that isn't real. So I think we really need to ask ourselves: are we helping this child connect or are we just teaching them to appear more palatable to others? Because real connection doesn't require performance, it requires safety. It requires being met as you are, and that's something that every child serves.

It requires safety. That is so, so beautiful and so important. Because I think it is easy to forget that this approach can teach someone that being themselves isn't enough. That's what it is at the core. They have to be someone else, they have to put on a performance. And imagine going into every interaction feeling that way.

And it's not even that it's not enough. Being yourself isn't safe. That's the ultimate message that they're being told.

Yeah. Oh, it it's definitely powerful to sort of rethink it and sort of put that language on it, I think. And for I think an awful lot of people will have, particularly if if their sort of education in sort of autism support has been sort of over the past sort of 10 years, they will have been told that social skills training is beneficial and positive and the way to go for autistic young people. But obviously, we're we're hearing from autistic people, we're understanding what masking is, camouflaging is, so we're seeing that that isn't the case. And would you have any ideas on how someone might begin to reframe that thinking if that's how they've been trained?

Yeah, I think I really appreciate that question. Um, and the truth is for so many people, the shift doesn't happen overnight, especially, you know, if you were trained in more traditional approaches, or if your instinct is to help a child fit in socially because you think that that's what will keep them happy and safe. Um, the intention often comes from a place of care, but the framework needs a serious, serious rethink. Um, so I think a good place to start is to reflect on a few simple but really powerful questions. So, what is the goal here? What are my expectations? Where do these expectations come from and whose needs are actually being met? This little framework can open up so much. Are we trying to help a child feel safe and connected? Or are we trying to make them um easier to manage in a group setting? Are we supporting their communication or are we asking them to mimic ours? And if you're feeling a bit wobbly, has you unlearn things, which you know is inevitable, that's perfectly okay. In fact, it's a really, really good sign. So discomfort means that something is shifting. And the important thing is not to get stuck in guilt or shame. You're not a bad parent, teacher, or practitioner if you used these things, um, if you used to do these things differently. We have all started somewhere. And what matters is what you do now with the knowledge that you have. So another thing is like listen to neurodivergent voices, read the blogs, follow the social media accounts, attend the trainings, especially the ones that center lived experience. Um, but also stay curious and critical. Be wary of anyone who claims to be an expert because there is no such thing as an expert. Um, and just because someone is neurodivergent doesn't automatically mean that they're speaking from a neuro-affirming place, because internalized ableism is very real, and I've carried it myself, we all do, and it can sneak into even the most well-meaning spaces. So, my invitation is just to be open, be reflective, and don't rush the process. Um, there's no final destination here, just a deepening awareness that allows us to show up more compassionately, more flexibly, and more honestly in a relationship with children.

That's lovely. Yeah, and it is it's about sort of extending that empathy that people naturally have, and and they're there to support those young people. So they're they're they're clearly very empathetic, but also then extending that empathy to themselves, isn't it? And allowing them the space to feel safe in relearning and exploring different ways of doing things, which can be really scary, I think.

It is that unlearning process is huge and it's ongoing. Like I'm still unlearning. We all still have to unlearn. There's so many nuances and layers to everything. We're never going to, we're never going to be an expert.

Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned that sort of internalizabilism, and that's something that we'll get to in a bit. But yeah, absolutely, it's something that I still have to sort of think about and and re-examine on a regular basis because the world tells us to exist in one particular way. And then when you start to challenge that, you see that there's so many different places that it needs challenging. So yeah, it's it's a it's a a constant journey, but a really positive journey, I think, definitely.

Worthwhile.

Yeah, absolutely. And then in your resource, you give examples of of ways of interacting that sort of differ across all people. And do you have any kind of favorite examples of those?

Um, yeah, and I'm so glad that that part like stood out to you because um that part of the resource was so important to me because we talk a lot about recognizing differences, but then we don't actually offer concrete ways to explore and affirm differences with children. The one section I'm really proud of is the self-advocacy scripts. So these were designed to feel like a gentle starting point. It was never meant to be uh this is how you should speak or behave. It's not a prompt, it's more of like a safety net, a way to help a child feel prepared in moments that might otherwise feel overwhelming. I wrote them based on lived experience, both my own and what I've heard from so many neurodivergent children and teens in my practice. And the idea is never to hand them over and say, use this. It's about collaborating with the child, adapting the scripts, or even turning them into drawings or gestures or code words, whatever suits the individual. And then another favorite of mine is the reframing language chart. So showing how we can shift the way we describe social traits. It's such a simple idea, but I've had parents and professionals message me to see how impactful it was for them. Just seeing the difference between calling a child too intense versus recognising them as deeply passionate and expressive, it matters. And I always come back to this: it's not about fixing the child, it's about adjusting the environment, the language, the expectations so they can just be. And I hope these activities feel like a kind, creative invitation to do just that.

Yeah, that's gorgeous. And you mentioned the self-advocacy piece that you have in there, and I found that actually really emotional to read because we were talking about that internalizabilism. And you, you know, you mentioned sort of what self-advocacy can look like for non-autistic folk and and neurotypical folk. And I realized that a lot of how I try and force my own self-advocacy has been down that region. It's about being able to get up and talk, and you know, that's not where I'm comfortable. It's not where I'm comfortable at all. And I'm only just sort of relearning to sort of take a step back from that and say, no, that's not how I'm comfortable. Here are other things that I can do. So I just thought that was so powerful for me when I read it. And why was that something that you thought was really important to highlight?

I'm so glad that that resonated with you. Um, because again, this part of the resource is really personal to me as well. Um, the way we define self-advocacy has such an impact on how children are seen and how they come to see themselves. And often the dominant idea of advocacy, what schools and systems tend to praise, is rooted in a very specific model, which is like speaking up clearly, as you said, being assertive, using eye statements, holding eye contact, and that kind of polished, confident communication. And like that's great for the children who naturally express themselves that way. But what about the child who writes things down instead of speaking out loud? Or the one who fidgets with their hoodie in a way of saying, like, this is just too much for me? And what about the teen who plans out a response in advance because they know that they'll freeze otherwise? Those are all really valid, powerful acts of self-advocacy, but they're often missed because they don't look the way we expect them to. So I've worked with children who have been labelled as passive or avoidant when actually they've been incredibly clear in communicating their needs, just not in expected ways. And I've seen how much it chips away at them when that communication isn't recognized. They start to wonder, am I being too sensitive? Am I getting it wrong? And that doubt can linger for years. So I wanted to highlight this not only to validate children, but to reframe what adults are looking for. Because if we don't recognize these moments of self-advocacy, we risk dismissing them entirely. And that's really, really damaging. It teaches children that their way of expressing needs isn't good enough or that it isn't even noticed. It's not about how loud or polished the message is, it's about whether the message is heard and respected. And that means we as adults, we have to get better at tuning into the ways that children are already advocating for themselves. Because when we see it, when we really, really see it and when we validate it, something shifts. That child starts to trust themselves a little bit more. They start to believe maybe my needs actually do matter and maybe my voice is enough just as it is. And it's not just about being heard, it's about being listened to with respect. If a child says, I don't want to go to the birthday party, and we distract, override, or ignore that, we're not supporting their autonomy. We're teaching them that what they need doesn't matter. I really believe as well that self-advocacy, self-esteem, and confidence all fuel one another. And they look different for every single child. So the more we can recognize and affirm those differences, the safer and stronger our children will feel in themselves, knowing that their way of expressing themselves is worthy of attention and care.

Again, it's about the adults and non-autistic folk potentially taking a look at their own assumptions and their own behaviors and how they're feeling in situations rather than thinking about changing the behavior of the young person, which is so important and and so central to I think how we should interact with each other in general.

I think it's so obvious, but people are just, I don't know, is is it like an autistic way of thinking that to me it's really obvious, but it's just been missed.

Yeah, yeah. It's yeah, it's very interesting. But I mean, it you're doing what we need people to do, you know, you're you're putting voice to this and and you're, you know, giving people sort of a route to sort of changing the way that they approach things, which is so, so powerful, I think. Um and one of the things that that you mentioned in the book and in the resource as well is um social scripts. And I know for me, I when I hear social scripts, my blood pressure tends to raise just a little bit because they they can be a way for people to be told how they need to behave. And this is what you're supposed to say in this situation, and that's the end of it. You know, learn it, say it, you're done. Um, but you take a neuro-affirming approach to to the concept of social scripts. And how how how do we do that?

Yeah, and it's funny because it's like we like to use a completely different word because, like, again, that's that's what we think of social scripts when we think of social scripts. Um, but I was like, no, I'm gonna stick to that word and just completely flip it again. So it's really, really important to unpack this because social scripts have become a bit of a double-edged sword. On one hand, they can be helpful, um, particularly for kids who feel anxious or uncertain in social situations. But on the other hand, they've often and mostly they've been used in ways that strip away authenticity and pressure children to perform neurotypical behavior. And that's again where the harm creeps in. So traditional social scripts usually um go something like when someone says this, you say that. And they're rigid, they're rehearsed, and they leave very little room for the child's natural voice or preferences. And over time, they can teach children to mask, um, to say what's expected, even if it doesn't feel right. And while that might get them through the moment, it can also create a growing disconnect from themselves. So we can't ignore how damaging it can be when social scripts are used to encourage masking, um, putting on a performance just to be accepted. But if we if it's used with care, they can be a form of self-advocacy. They can help a child communicate in a way that still feels true to who they are. So when I include social scripts in the resource, are not even social scripts, just scripts. So when I include scripts in the resource, I do it very, very intentionally and very, very differently. Um, they're not a one size fits all. They're flexible prompts written from lived experience and with a deep awareness of the nuance involved, because there's always nuance. Um, and they're to be adapted, reworded, um, and turned into visuals or even role-play played if that feels right. So the key is that they're child-led, they're collaborative, and they're completely optional. They should never be used to get a child to perform someone else's expectations. Instead, they're there as a co-created tool that the child can use, um that they can choose to use if it helps them to feel prepared or less anxious. And ideally, they open up conversations, which is actually really important. It gives an opportunity to open up conversations where we can talk about what is hard, what's confusing, and what they wish other people knew. And then most importantly, um, these scripts are optional. So they're there as a support, not as a standard. The goal is never now you're saying the right thing, but rather, does this feel like you and does this help you feel prepared or safe? It's also worth saying that sometimes the most affirming thing we can do is throw the script out entirely. Some children don't want or need that kind of structure, and that's perfectly okay. So, really, it comes down to consent, collaboration, and context. As a social script or a script can be a beautiful tool if it's rooted in autonomy, not conformity, and if it helps the child feel more like themselves, not less.

Gorgeous. And yeah, that idea does this feel like you're so important.

And as you say, that can lead to some beautiful conversations, I would imagine, and lovely nuance that's Yeah, and again, to discuss like what is a child, they just get to externalize what's going on internally and like open up a discussion around that, which is really important.

Yeah, absolutely. And then yeah, the those two words, co-creation and choice, are so central to pretty much everything and all interaction, right? Collaboration, yeah. Um I guess that that sort of brings me nicely on. So you're a play therapist, obviously. And do you feel that we talk about play and friendship in a way that is useful for autistic people and sort of the way that we typically describe play and friendship um reflects autistic experience?

Oh my god, like where do we even start with this one? It's just yeah. Okay, I'm gonna try not to rant about this. So, um, like a lot of what we've been taught about play, so in schools and therapy settings, even in parenting books, is based on a very narrow idea of what good or appropriate play looks like. It's usually interactive, imaginative, um, you know, spoken words are used, and it's cooperative. And there's often a big emphasis on milestones, milestones and skill building. So if a child isn't playing in a way that fits that mold, if they're lining up toys or playing alone or deep diving into one interest, the assumption is that something's wrong, that they're behind, and that they need help to play properly. Um, and here's the thing: play is not a checklist, it's a language. Play is a direct expression of how a child is experiencing their world. Play is a deeply personal and restorative practice. It's how they make sense of their world, how they regulate, how they explore emotions, and how they find joy. And it's going to look different for every individual child. I've had children refer to me specifically to learn play skills. I don't know, is this something that still happens an awful lot? But I mean, with play therapists, it's like, yeah, a lot of the referrals is to, you know, teach the child play skills. And I've sat in professional trainings where we were taught to model or prompt more typical play behaviors. I know.

Oh my goodness.

And honestly, it makes my stomach turn because what it's really saying is your way of playing isn't good enough, your way of relating isn't acceptable, and the idea of appropriate play or play skills, it's just really harmful because it tries to shape children's natural play into something that fits adult expectations rather than respecting their unique ways of playing and expressing themselves and also developing. So, how can we force a child to play in a way that doesn't align with their experience? It's simply, it's just not going to make sense to them. And then there is the way we talk about friendships, and there is this cultural obsession with children having lots of friends, especially same age peers are being part of a group. But that model doesn't work for everyone, and it certainly doesn't reflect the richness of how many neurons. Divergent children form connections. I've worked with children who have a deep bond with one friend, or who connect more easily with adults, or who have the most beautiful relationship with their pet or their favorite teddy. And these are all real, valuable, emotionally rich relationships. And they may not fit the usual friendship mold, but they absolutely do count. And then let's not forget like parallel play as well. That kind of play is where children are near each other doing their own thing, but they're still sharing space and energy. And this is another incredibly important way that autistic children and neurodivergent children connect. And it's often overlooked or dismissed. So there's no, obviously, there's no, you know, one right way to play or to make friends. And we really need to honor each child's way of playing or experiencing friendships because trying to force a child into a narrow version of our expectations doesn't help them connect. It actually disconnects them from their own sense of safety and expression.

Yeah, absolutely. I I I could not have been nodding more vigorously as you were talking there. I could not agree more with all of that. Yeah. It's and particularly the the the play part, it's as you know, how often we tell young people that the way that they find joy isn't appropriate and they need to stop it and do things that other people are doing. It just makes no sense to me. But again, maybe that's an autistic thing.

I don't know. Like, how do people define play? Like, is is there a goal in it? Like what? It again it just doesn't make sense. But yes, it has come up so many times about you know, referrals for play skills, and it comes up again and again and again in training about teaching play skills as a play therapist.

Got it.

And it's just bizarre.

Yeah, it's shocking. And then, as you say, the the idea of a particular type of friendship being the goal for everyone. When I mean, we also spend so much of our time talking about the loneliness epidemic that's happening now and how difficult everyone is finding at finding friendship. So we maybe we broaden how we understand friendship and we all get to benefit from that. Yeah. I don't know. We'll fix the world one of these days. Or my my very last question for you is a question that I ask everyone at the end of the podcast. If you could go back and give some advice to your younger self, um, what would that advice be?

Oh, I've been asked this before, and it's just it's a really hard one. Because honestly, like every misstep and burnout um I've had has shaped the work that I do. And you know, I'm someone who learns through experience. So even if future me showed up with like this list of perfect advice, I would definitely like roll my eyes and like not take it. And I just go out and figure it out myself the hard way. Um but I suppose if I could offer myself some gentle kind of like not even advice, but just a little nugget now for the present me and for the future me. And this is also for anyone listening who tends to second guess themselves, it would be just to trust your gut, especially when you're in a space that doesn't feel right, even when others are nodding along and your body is saying no. So I've spent a lot of time in settings where neurofarming practice wasn't the norm. And I've often like found myself thinking maybe I'm just being difficult, you know, when actually what I was feeling was a deep misalignment. And that kind of internal conflict is exhausting, especially when you really care about getting things right. And like here's the thing that I've had to learn as well over time is that there's a huge difference between sitting um with the discomfort of growth, like sitting with hard truths, unlearning ableism, or exploring exploring systems of oppression, and the discomfort of being asked to abandon your values to fit in. And those two things are not the same. And it's taken me, you know, quite a long time to learn the difference. So, yes, stay open, keep learning, keep reflecting, but don't lose yourself in the process. You're allowed to question systems, um, and you don't have to override what feels wrong just to be accepted. Um, you're not here to please everyone, um, you're here to do what's right. And do you know what? Your gut always knows what's right.

Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. The views expressed in these chats may not always be the view of Middletown Centre. If you'd like to know more about Middletown, you can find us on X at Autism Centre on Facebook and Instagram at Middletown Centre for Autism. Go easy until next time.

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Alternatives to Social Skills Training with Gráinne Warren - The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast

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In the latest Middletown Podcast, we chat to play therapist Gráinne Warren about building authentic connections rather than "training" social skills. Gráinne brings years of practice, research and lived experience to her work, and she has created a resource focused on supporting young people to c...