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"It is to maximize time on task and obedience to authority." 

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"It is to maximize time on task and obedience to authority." 

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I'm sure someone else picked this quote or one quite like it, this chapter is full of the word obedience. It makes me uncomfortable even thinking that word has a place in a learning environment. Feels left over from the time when the objective of education was to make little efficient workers. Fraught with power dynamics. Brimming with insecurity. Too many teachers and humans are projecting their own unfortunate past experiences of being dominated by someone sadly abusing their power and are passing on their abuse in the shape of obedience. No one wants to be under another's thumb, not to mention that we're talking about teaching and learning here. It's Maslow, it's that which goes against everything that education is about. Crafting and supporting a an experience for students to reflect on the world and self.

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"What are your long term goals for the students you work with? What do you want them to be-to be like- long after they've left you?.... no educator, or parent for that matter, has ever said that his or her long term goal for students is to know how to solve an equation with two variables, or to be able to name the names of the explorers of the New World." (Kohn, p 61)

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"What are your long term goals for the students you work with? What do you want them to be-to be like- long after they've left you?.... no educator, or parent for that matter, has ever said that his or her long term goal for students is to know how to solve an equation with two variables, or to be able to name the names of the explorers of the New World." (Kohn, p 61)

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I have to say that I have really valued Alfie Kohn over the years from a parent's perspective. I own the book, "Unconditional Parenting" and I value many of the points he makes in this book regarding parenting. Never have I felt defensive or indignant while reading his words before (though I've never agreed with everything he says), but reading this book, I feel like a skeptic. I feel annoyed. Indignant. Like he's never actually been responsible for "managing" a classroom of his own before. Anyway, I just wanted to discuss my gut feelings as I read this book because I am finding them interesting. I find a lot of value here and I love that he questions authoritarianism and the status quo. Of course. Now that those feelings are off my chest, here is my response to my chosen quote.

As both a parent (four daughters-19,16,16,5) and a (student) teacher, I feel I am in a permanent wrestling match between doing what is best for long term development while also meeting short term (and also important) goals. Like, I want students to feel seen, supported, autonomous, and valued and I also want the damn learning target understood and the chores completed! A lot of times, with some preemptive planning with ALL students in mind, both long term and short term goals can be met via the same path. But in reality, sometimes they can't. How to balance the longer term social goals for student (and my own children)  with the sorter term goals of teaching content (and values) is a constant question for me. One thing that doesn't sit well with me while reading this chapter has been when Kohn seems to disparage the importance of learning and teaching content. I would like to see him emphasizing that both socio-emotional goals and academic goals are priorities. The current reality is that teachers must teacher standards based content and that students must show their understanding of that content. This is our job.
I also believe, when teachers are supported in their pursuit of improving themselves as both culturally responsive and INCLUSIVE educators and also held accountable for their development as such, both shorter term content learning and longer term social/character goals can be achieved together with equal importance and success.

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I was struck by the story of the two students who shared their lunches with others. “The first student did so in the hope that the teacher would notice this and praise him… The second student... was simply concerned that the kid sitting next to him might go hungry.” (Kohn, 2006, p. 73) This anecdote forced me to pause and think about the connections between a lot of ideas that I have been pondering recently. I tried to fit this into the Classroom Management Spectrum outlined in Ch. 3 of the Pinto text (2013, pp. 37-58). This spectrum is helpful for me to lay out various strategies and responses for comparison. The goal is to push my work towards the engagement side of the spectrum, and this applies not only to content, but also to social skills. The first student in the story is performing a positive social behavior in order to receive a reward, while the second student is truly engaged in the social well-being of his community. As teachers, we cannot shove facts into the brains of our students without focusing on the skills required for them to learn and connect these facts to their world. Kohn (2006) speaks about how teachers’ long-term goals for students are broadly based on skills and traits that will empower the students to be productive members of society (p.65). This seems relatively straightforward, but the power structures and traditions of the U.S. educational system complicate the matter very quickly. It is difficult to deprioritize standardized testing. It is difficult to treat every disruption of the teacher’s plan as a unique learning opportunity. It is difficult to hand over control of the classroom to the collective group. But if we want students to contribute to their various communities after they leave our care, we need to allow them to develop the skills to learn and live without us.

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"What we have to face is that the more we "manage" students' behavior and try to make them do what we say, the more difficult it is for them to become morally sophisticated people who think for themselves and care about others."(Kohn, p. 62).

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"What we have to face is that the more we "manage" students' behavior and try to make them do what we say, the more difficult it is for them to become morally sophisticated people who think for themselves and care about others."(Kohn, p. 62).

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I was compelled by the exercise described earlier in this chapter about teachers wishing for their students to portray certain "psychological and social characteristics"(p.61). Much of this chapter made me think about how compliance has played a role in most schools or other jobs that I have had outside of education. Often times I find myself in the position of questioning established systems, or operating procedures; finding holes in the fabric that the establishment has carefully designed to appeal to external investors(parents, customers, clients etc). "I should not feel entitled to use a coercive discipline program; rather, I should examine the source of my demand for compliance."(p.63)  This is something I could relate to and really ties into educating for equity as well as culturally responsive classroom management. When we think critically about compliance in our school systems, and as well as our own complicity, I believe we have an opportunity to challenge ourselves to speak up about what we believe could work better to our superiors with the goal of uplifting those in our school community to go beyond complicity and "think for themselves." It is easy to see the roadblock(what I would call "fear of the unknown"), though from my experience the challenge can be freeing: when we share our truth with others, we are offering an opportunity for others to also share their truth.

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There are so many quotes from this chapter that, more than catching my attention, worked as an eye opener specially having an education background from a country where a “perfect” student is the one that sits and pays attention to the teacher without refuting.

“Moreover, conflict sometimes takes forms that are patently destructive and must be stopped, if only to ensure the safety of the participants and those around them. But disagreement, however challenging it may be to the teacher and his prepared lesson plan, can be seen as an opportunity for learning- a teachable moment” pg. 24

Sometimes I think about that day, a day where I get challenged by a student and this chapter got me somehow ready for it. Teaching should be an experience where we all learn from each other. There isn’t an only way for doing things, as a future teacher I keep an open mind for inducing critical thinking from my students.

Another quote that it is connected to Alfie Kohn’s theory when it comes to punishment and rewards when he refers to them as ways of manipulating behavior that consequently destroy the potential for real learning. It is on pg. 62 “Even when children are successfully rewarded or threatened into compliance, they will likely feel no commitment to what they are doing, no deep understanding of the act and its rationale, no sense of themselves as the kind of people who would want to act this way in the future” This model of compliance as I state before doesn’t invite the student to think out of the box, their main focus is being rewarded or being punished if they don’t comply. Instead we must provide an engaging curriculum and a caring learning environment where the students can act on their natural desire to find out.

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Pp. 62 “Remember: they have been led to concentrate on the consequences of their actions to themselves, and someone with this frame of reference bears little resemblance to the kind of person we dream of seeing our students become.”

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Pp. 62 “Remember: they have been led to concentrate on the consequences of their actions to themselves, and someone with this frame of reference bears little resemblance to the kind of person we dream of seeing our students become.”

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I remember consequences being more like threats in my eyes. “You know what will happen to you if you blank blank… there will be consequences” Lets see how much further I can tear down the great god wall of punishment. Consequences instills a lot of fear in students, a lot of walking on eggshells. Just to make one small mistake is frightening to most and exhilarating for others. This is the kind of person Ironically I don’t want to be. The punisher. Students need to be able to make errors, however often it takes for them to realize they messed up. I believe student’s should be able to breathe in class and not be breathless.

Pp.60 “What matters is that the teacher never gave up any real control. What matters is the goal is not learning: it is obedience.”

I find this quote to be very contradictory. I do agree with it and then yet I don’t. Students need to learn how to obey but not be taught how to obey? “With the american systemization of consequences, punishment, rewards “are instruments for controlling people” pp. 58. It's the way we have taught children to obey in families and in school. Perfectly normal and I’m sure we're not the only ones who do it but to me, it’s silly. It’s like we are raising kids to be like dogs, cattle, sheep. I’d rather them be Wolves, Oxen, and Rams. Independently bold. What do we as humans do when we  encounter these sentient beings? We let them be. That is why Obedience is learnt alone through respect. Not the teacher teaching obedience to obey. Respect each other in order to gain obedience and that is why “an effective teacher by definition is one who manages to get compliance with minimal effort and who succeeds in forcing rebellious children to back down” pp. 56.

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“To create a classroom where students feel safe enough to challenge each other – and us – is to give them an enormous gift” (Kohn, p. 77).

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“To create a classroom where students feel safe enough to challenge each other – and us – is to give them an enormous gift” (Kohn, p. 77).

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Upon reading this quote, I immediately thought back to my first term as a Peer Mentor in Portland State University.  At first, I focused so much on avoiding conflict, but it was inevitable that I would have students who were not satisfied with their learning experience. Three weeks into the term, half of the class challenged the professor and their teaching strategies, I was in the middle of everything for the class. As stressful as it was, I did not lay my hand down to demand order or compliance because I knew there were underlying concerns beneath my students' disappointment. Addressing their concerns to my faculty partner was not easy, either, but I knew that the students placed their trust in me to facilitate improvements within the class.

Conflict is meant to be a moment for students and teachers to work with each other, not an indication that the teacher must use their power to coerce or manipulate their students to behave a specific way. It is not enough to listen to students and their ideas that clash with one another; rather, listening to them and reflecting on the issues that are present with a critical thinking approach to ourselves is an effective way to enact meaningful change, especially if the students participate in  the process of conflict resolution. By disregarding conflicts as excuses or meaningless discussions, educators risk alienating their students and disrupting the classroom environment in which cultural responsiveness is stagnant and small issues turn into significantly stressful problems.

As mentioned in Pinto (2013), taking the time to reflect on our work as educators can help us rethink our strategies and adapt to new situations (p. 34). By encouraging students to challenge each others' ideas and their teacher's strategies, they are on their way to critically analyze what learning styles work for them, what values they have about themselves and the people they work with, and how to resolve an issue in an effective, meaningful manner. This kind of experience is not meant to be reserved only to college students because it is valuable for students in any grade level. I never would have guessed that conflict would be something I would happily embrace since I have feared it for years, but I understand it is meant to be an opportunity for everyone, including educators, to learn and benefit from it.

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“To someone who thinks in terms of managing students, the only thing worse than the sort of conflict in which students are arguing with each other is the kind where they have the temerity to challenge the teacher” (Kohn, 2006, p. 77).

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“To someone who thinks in terms of managing students, the only thing worse than the sort of conflict in which students are arguing with each other is the kind where they have the temerity to challenge the teacher” (Kohn, 2006, p. 77).

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I love this quote because I feel like I’ve seen this so often from teachers, both when I was in school and now working in education. In my role in the “Behavior Management Office” at Alder Creek, I am responsible for recording referrals from teachers after they have been processed by Admin. By far the most common reason a student gets written up is Defiance/Disrespect. This is so common that whenever I see one for something else I am genuinely surprised. There seems to be something so upsetting to many teachers about being challenged by students, and I think this book by Kohn is demonstrating what that is.

The business of exerting control over children is clearly a very exhausting process. It must be maintained nearly constantly, and students are clearly always pushing on boundaries that are being established by coercion or reward. It’s no wonder these teachers always talk about how overwhelmed they are. The control that many of these teachers maintain is clearly a fragile one. And yet I can’t help but notice that the teachers that don’t frequently write referrals about defiance/disrespect also seem to be the teachers that have the most egalitarian classrooms, with students frequently participating in productive whole-class or small-group discussions. I wonder if so much energy being spent on trying to maintain “control” over children is preventing energy being spent on the actual teaching part?

Reflecting on these referral forms I spend so much of my time dealing with at work, I’m really wondering what the point is. More often than not, it seems like it is a way for teachers to complain to Admin about particular students challenging them on this or that expectation. But the Administrators are generally too busy (and inundated with so many such incidents) that they rarely attempt to find out what the actual issue is and merely assign a lunch detention and call it done. It seems to me that this is a horribly inefficient and unjust process. In Chapter 7 of From Discipline to Culturally Responsive Engagement (2013), Pinto says incident “reports should also be a basis for reflection on [the teacher’s] part. […] Use these patterns as an opportunity to identify changes that can be made to teaching or classroom organization as a preventative measure. At least at Alder Creek, I don’t believe this happens very often, if at all. It seems like the teachers that write the most referrals are also the least likely to believe that the problem might not be entirely the students, but instead may be the result of their own teaching practices. Perhaps this extreme response to being challenged is ultimately the result of the teacher knowing that their methods ARE worth challenging, but they are so set in their ways that they choose to send the problem up the chain of command instead of considering that the solution might rest more in how they manage their own relationship with their students and the classroom culture they have built.

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“Denying students a voice, however, does not make their objections disappear; it just sweeps them under the carpet where people will trip over them—that is, where they will make their presence felt in ways that are less productive than rational argument.” (Kohn, p. 76)

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“Denying students a voice, however, does not make their objections disappear; it just sweeps them under the carpet where people will trip over them—that is, where they will make their presence felt in ways that are less productive than rational argument.” (Kohn, p. 76)

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In the first several years of my teaching, it used to be a knee jerk reaction, for me, to resist objections or conflicts which are arising in class directly. I did not welcome any dissent which seemed to stop the smooth flow happening in the classroom, increase the tension between misbehavior students and me, and even undermine the rapport with the entire class I made every effort to establish. There was no surprise that prompt intervention was my primary and only method to deal with such conflicts. I was not sure about where I “gained” it, maybe from my observation of my colleagues’ classes, being told by “experienced and skilled” veterans, or deriving from my personal experience and reflection. I did prefer to use a few words, simple but understandable, to convey my command or order to stop any unexpected behaviors in class, irrespective of the attitudes of the misbehavior students or just students having different perspectives and interpretations of what was going on in class.

It seemed that I successfully extinguished the possibility of continuous conflicts. However, the situation was always the opposite, even worse. The conflicts still existed in a seemingly silent but more severe way. Moreover, not only the students who brought up the conflicts but also other students exposed to such negative, inharmonious classroom environments were affected by unsolved problems and ignorance from their teacher. And if I kept neglecting those conflicts and unwilling to handle them with my students together truly, situations always became hard to control.

Positively confronting and coping with conflicts is necessary. Besides, the benefits are manifold. As mentioned on page 76 as well, “the bottom line is that ‘teachers should expect and welcome children’s excuses and arguments about rules’ (Edwards 1986, p. 169) because that is how children become thinkers—by making up their minds about whether something makes sense and figuring out how to convince others.” I have never thought about this perspective of cultivating students’ thinking ability by allowing or encouraging them to formulate their ideas to justify their behaviors or opinions. Therefore, everything is just like a coin having two sides, even conflicts. How to appropriately deal with it is a pressing issue.

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"We are advised to tell children in no uncertain terms how we expect them to behave, to impose “limits” as we see fit, and to announce what will happen to anyone who disobeys. In short, the prescription is dictate, control, and threaten. An effective teacher by definition is one who manages to get compliance with minimal effort and who succeeds in forcing rebellious children to back down" (Kohn, p. 56) 

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"We are advised to tell children in no uncertain terms how we expect them to behave, to impose “limits” as we see fit, and to announce what will happen to anyone who disobeys. In short, the prescription is dictate, control, and threaten. An effective teacher by definition is one who manages to get compliance with minimal effort and who succeeds in forcing rebellious children to back down" (Kohn, p. 56) 

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The whole introductory section of the chapter really stood out to me because it clearly illustrates how traditional knowledge of classroom management is ineffective. I have always thought that the teacher being seen as the ultimate authority is not conducive to a good learning environment because it can cause children to be fearful of adults and consequently lead students to become disengaged. It is later stated that the idea of control is not to be questioned because it is what is expected which bothers me because it does not create a sense of legitimacy and is very authoritarian. The idea that someone or something can not be questioned does not make sense to me because it can easily lead to dissent and conflict, both of which should be avoided in a classroom community. I believe that students should have some ability to make decisions because they will be more likely to take responsibility if they know what consequences, both negative and positive, will occur for any behavior. It is also a good idea to involve students in making rules or guidelines because it can help me understand their socialization patterns and what is viewed as appropriate or inappropriate behavior by students in comparison to my own thoughts and beliefs. I think the quote that best supports this argument is on page 73 when it states “children become thinkers by making up their own minds about whether something makes sense and figuring out how to convince others” because it means there is discussion happening and the reason for a particular rule being in place may be seen as more legitimate compared to an argument where the rule exists just because the teacher says it exists. Having a back and forth conversation about behavior is beneficial for both student and teacher because it can help teachers better understand the students views on compliance and work to meet these perspectives while students get an opportunity to decide the fairness and begin to think critically about what proper behavior looks like and what they can do to become the best possible student they can be.

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“More significantly, these systems accept- also without questioning- that it is desirable, if not necessary, for teachers to be in control of their classrooms. The only issues are how benevolent that controller will be and how respectfully she will get and maintain the control” (Kohn, p. 59).

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“More significantly, these systems accept- also without questioning- that it is desirable, if not necessary, for teachers to be in control of their classrooms. The only issues are how benevolent that controller will be and how respectfully she will get and maintain the control” (Kohn, p. 59).

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In this chapter, Kohn zooms out to take a look at the bigger picture. He raises several key questions and invites the reader to critically consider what we are trying to achieve by challenging our own assumptions about education. Instead of offering strategies to manage our classrooms, he places classroom management as part of a larger, systemic issue. This chapter made me reflect on my own assumptions- What does engagement look like? What does learning look like? What does it mean to behave well? These are questions on which I will continue to reflect given that I used to associate a quiet classroom with an on-task classroom. One of my takeaways from this chapter is that deep learning is messy (p. 75). I found especially interesting the idea that even though we may believe that we have progressive ideas about education and classroom management, our actions do not demonstrate that we have students’ best interests at heart. As Kohn puts it, there is “a yawning chasm between what we want and what we are doing, between how we would like students to turn out and how our classrooms and schools actually work” (p. 61). As a language teacher, I thought of the old school methods of memorizing verb charts and parroting the teacher. Surely those teachers wanted their students to be able to engage with native speakers and creatively use the language, right? And yet, they were not employing good strategies to achieve that goal.

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(Kohn, A. Ch.5, pp.60-61). While I was reading the section The Problem With Compliance, if found that the following passages were important to share and also to think about:       “What are your long-term goals for the students you work with? What would you like them to be-to be like-long after they’ve left you?...This simple exercise, which I recommend for virtually any staff development session or faculty meeting, is so useful because it is so unsettling. It is unsettling because it exposes a yawning chasm between what we want and what we are doing, between how we would like students to turn out and how our classrooms and schools actually work.”                   The answers that I came up with were: to assist students feel empowered in their academics or learning; assist them in the process of thinking critically, develop their own ideas and solutions; assist in the process of being sound communicators; assist in the process of being culturally aware, responsive and respectful.                    As noted in this section the exercise is a good method for teachers, admin to utilize to learn about themselves and what we want for the students long term. I would include that it could be an exercise that could be initiated with students; I think this could be an approach to get them to think about themselves and their future, maybe it is an approach that could foster one-on-one relationships with the students. A difficult task is how to have the school environment change from the short-term goals or focus (testing, scores, number of students graduating) to the long-term focus. I think it not just the school but the entire school district that will need to change the focus.  

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(Kohn, A. Ch.5, pp.60-61). While I was reading the section The Problem With Compliance, if found that the following passages were important to share and also to think about:       “What are your long-term goals for the students you work with? What would you like them to be-to be like-long after they’ve left you?...This simple exercise, which I recommend for virtually any staff development session or faculty meeting, is so useful because it is so unsettling. It is unsettling because it exposes a yawning chasm between what we want and what we are doing, between how we would like students to turn out and how our classrooms and schools actually work.”                   The answers that I came up with were: to assist students feel empowered in their academics or learning; assist them in the process of thinking critically, develop their own ideas and solutions; assist in the process of being sound communicators; assist in the process of being culturally aware, responsive and respectful.                    As noted in this section the exercise is a good method for teachers, admin to utilize to learn about themselves and what we want for the students long term. I would include that it could be an exercise that could be initiated with students; I think this could be an approach to get them to think about themselves and their future, maybe it is an approach that could foster one-on-one relationships with the students. A difficult task is how to have the school environment change from the short-term goals or focus (testing, scores, number of students graduating) to the long-term focus. I think it not just the school but the entire school district that will need to change the focus.  

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Dreikurs, notwithstanding his humanistic reputation. Over and over, he criticizes teachers for discussing problems rather than simply taking action. To discuss is to fall into the clever student’s trap: “One cannot be firm if one talks. In the moment of conflict, talking is increased warfare and can have no beneficial effect”.......But the bottom line is that “teachers should expect and welcome children’s excuses and arguments about rules” (Edwards 1986, p. 169) because that is how children become thinkers—by making up their own minds about whether something makes sense and figuring out how to convince others.(Kohn p.76)

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Dreikurs, notwithstanding his humanistic reputation. Over and over, he criticizes teachers for discussing problems rather than simply taking action. To discuss is to fall into the clever student’s trap: “One cannot be firm if one talks. In the moment of conflict, talking is increased warfare and can have no beneficial effect”.......But the bottom line is that “teachers should expect and welcome children’s excuses and arguments about rules” (Edwards 1986, p. 169) because that is how children become thinkers—by making up their own minds about whether something makes sense and figuring out how to convince others.(Kohn p.76)

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I agree with both Dreikurs and Edwards and can see the benefit from both. Students are very clever and do make all possible excuses to convince the teacher which they do at home to parents as well. I hear and understand that educators should open up their mind to support that their students should have chance to have an arguments about rules rather than educators fall into becoming a classroom police and that way students become true thinkers. My culture doesn't have the positive interpretation about hearing many excuses from who cross the rules which is considered not pretty and doesn't fit with the student's dignity unless the situation looks obviously that teachers should investigate from hearing from students. My culture appreciate the humble and hear the apologies. In general from my reading, students centered learning style is more focus and avoiding punish focus approach that are old school and not recommended and teachers' authority and "control" class are also negatively understood. My experience is that students expect teacher's power of controlling classroom and I am not sure if the students' expectation is actually teachers use always positive approach for to manage the classroom. It looks that students are more asking teachers to create the  environment where they can learn and those students who needs to learn more classroom citizenship, they think those are the students that teachers should take care of and not with all students included. And there are students (and parents)those who are hoping the appropriate learning environment must be created by the teacher but not students. So, I think teachers should listen to the excuses from students(which is not always pretty and a big stress for everyone, but I see students will learn a lot from it and teachers as well) but at the same time, educators may not be afraid the power to use (while you clearly realizing what you are doing and feel that you are doing a right thing) for to "control" the class and not hate using it when it's really needed (very often) which possibly very simple to understand by students(they are aware of it as well). I am just saying it is not all bad because it is about the responsibility of educators for class. I interpret Dreikurs awareness of the students' trap to teachers that there are cases(of many) when teachers should show a clear cut approach like "no is no" rather than arguments which later the class and students would appreciate them as well. Again, start conflict/arguments are not pretty always even though we could give students a right to do so. The decision of when to do what approach should be decided by each teacher, however, this firm clear cut approach and constantly giving a same approach and the same answer right away (not later time, because they forget what it was) is also useful. This can be the same in other classrooms as well or school wide so the message won't blurry to students.

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"Rewards and punishments are instruments for controlling people, and the real problem, I came to see, is the belief that the teacher should be in control of the classroom, that the principal objective— and sometimes the objective of the principal— is just to get students to comply." (Kohn, P. 58)

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"Rewards and punishments are instruments for controlling people, and the real problem, I came to see, is the belief that the teacher should be in control of the classroom, that the principal objective— and sometimes the objective of the principal— is just to get students to comply." (Kohn, P. 58)

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I found this quote impactful since those two things run foundational in so many classroom management techniques. While it is easy to see the difficulties and problems that punishments can cause in the lives of children, sometimes the more insidious aspects fo rewards are harder to put a finger on. I've felt off about rewards in behavior management systems for a while, but struggled to name that feeling. A few of the schools I've worked in, including Portland Public I think, use PBIS. While I know there are good aspects of the Positive Behavior Interventions and Supports system, I always see the rewards system of it and feel a bit off. I think this quote gets to the root of the issue for me, that it encourages students to comply, not to really develop independent responsibility. Perhaps this is a misinterpretation of the concepts in PBIS though, or rather an opinion formed on poor applications of an otherwise sound theory.

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"Indeed, we are tipped off from the start by the fact that presentation on these programs often begin with a nostalgic nod to the good old days when students did what the teacher asked without questioning, More significantly, these systems accept-also without questioning - that it is desireable."(Kohn, 59)

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"Indeed, we are tipped off from the start by the fact that presentation on these programs often begin with a nostalgic nod to the good old days when students did what the teacher asked without questioning, More significantly, these systems accept-also without questioning - that it is desireable."(Kohn, 59)

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This quote, along with much of the chapter, seems to be written for the old-school teacher over a certain age or with a certain amount of tenure. I recall growing up that this was often some of my elementary classrooms but they were the ones where I wasn't engaged. I was always the sort of student, that needed to be doing something in order to retain the information. That way, I could recall the memories and information easier. I don't think this is what Kohn is referring to, but it's one of the many advantages of the section "Be Seated and Refrain from Talking". I don't know much of the nostalgia factor he speaks of, actually quite the opposite. In fact, one of the most structured and seated classrooms I had as a student (4th and 6th grade reading and punctuation), led to deficits in my sentence structure that I still have issues with. I think there are many ways around simply writing examples over and over again on compound paragraphs, the usage of commas, etc. The best one would be to let the students write for themselves in creative writing. I think the reason many teachers stray away from this is it creates a lot more work with grading. That's why it's great to have student teachers and volunteers! You aren't shortchanging your students and can get feedback to students quicker. As Kohn states " to shy away from explicit talk of compliance" leads to more meaningful instruction and scaffolding they will need in future grades.

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From Kohn, page 66 - "One way to talk about compliance is to say that the goal is to get children to learn  the "appropriate" behavior, as designated by someone else. This approach is strikingly similar to the traditional model of academic instruction where information or skills are transmitted to students so they will be able to produce correct answers on demand. For anyone who understands the limits of a "right answer" approach to learning, it can be illuminating to see that classroom management is basically about eliciting the "right behavior." This analogy also may help us to think about what we could be accomplishing instead." As many of you know, I plan to become a math educator. When I attended elementary through high school, I was taught math in a "right answer" approach. We sat at our desks, in straight lines, and we completed problem set after problem set where we applied a formula, rule or concept over and over and over. We practiced a lot, we thought out of the box little and our goal was to get the "right answer" in the right way. I understood how to plug and chug, how to follow a rule but I am not sure that I understood math on any deep or meaningful level. As stated in the text (page 66), in many ways, my math education was comparable to "... clay to be molded, or computers to be programmed." And as stated further down on that page, "At best, they[/I] learned how to spit out someone else's right answer." So when I think of that analysis in respect to behavior, decision making and social/emotional problem solving, I see the limitations because as the author argues social and moral skills are not as developed with this approach. To continue with the math comparison, one of the math practice standards in the Common Core (CCSS.MATH.PRACTICE.MP1) states that "Mathematically proficient students start by explaining to themselves the meaning of a problem and looking for entry points to its solution. They analyze givens, constraints, relationships, and goals. They make conjectures about the form and meaning of the solution and plan a solution pathway rather than simply jumping into a solution attempt. They consider analogous problems, and try special cases and simpler forms of the original problem in order to gain insight into its solution." Teaching middle school students with this approach, I have seen teachers tackle calculus concepts with middle school students and for those students to develop a meaningful understanding of those concepts years before ever taking a calculus class. Returning to the Kohn text and his ideas about supporting moral growth in students, on page 67 - "The only way to help students become ethical people, as opposed to people who merely do what they are told, is to have them construct moral meaning. It is to help them figure out - for themselves and with each other - how one ought to act."   

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From Kohn, page 66 - "One way to talk about compliance is to say that the goal is to get children to learn  the "appropriate" behavior, as designated by someone else. This approach is strikingly similar to the traditional model of academic instruction where information or skills are transmitted to students so they will be able to produce correct answers on demand. For anyone who understands the limits of a "right answer" approach to learning, it can be illuminating to see that classroom management is basically about eliciting the "right behavior." This analogy also may help us to think about what we could be accomplishing instead." As many of you know, I plan to become a math educator. When I attended elementary through high school, I was taught math in a "right answer" approach. We sat at our desks, in straight lines, and we completed problem set after problem set where we applied a formula, rule or concept over and over and over. We practiced a lot, we thought out of the box little and our goal was to get the "right answer" in the right way. I understood how to plug and chug, how to follow a rule but I am not sure that I understood math on any deep or meaningful level. As stated in the text (page 66), in many ways, my math education was comparable to "... clay to be molded, or computers to be programmed." And as stated further down on that page, "At best, they[/I] learned how to spit out someone else's right answer." So when I think of that analysis in respect to behavior, decision making and social/emotional problem solving, I see the limitations because as the author argues social and moral skills are not as developed with this approach. To continue with the math comparison, one of the math practice standards in the Common Core (CCSS.MATH.PRACTICE.MP1) states that "Mathematically proficient students start by explaining to themselves the meaning of a problem and looking for entry points to its solution. They analyze givens, constraints, relationships, and goals. They make conjectures about the form and meaning of the solution and plan a solution pathway rather than simply jumping into a solution attempt. They consider analogous problems, and try special cases and simpler forms of the original problem in order to gain insight into its solution." Teaching middle school students with this approach, I have seen teachers tackle calculus concepts with middle school students and for those students to develop a meaningful understanding of those concepts years before ever taking a calculus class. Returning to the Kohn text and his ideas about supporting moral growth in students, on page 67 - "The only way to help students become ethical people, as opposed to people who merely do what they are told, is to have them construct moral meaning. It is to help them figure out - for themselves and with each other - how one ought to act."   

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“We want children to continue reading and thinking after school has ended, yet we focus their attention on grades, which have been shown to reduce interest in learning (Kohn 1993a, 1994). We want them to be critical thinkers, yet we feed them predigested facts and discrete skills—partly because of pressure from various constituencies to pump up standardized test scores. We act as though our goal is shortterm retention of right answers rather than genuine understanding” (Kohn, pg 64).

I was talking to a coworker about my classes a few weeks ago and when I mentioned how much reading I was doing he replied, “You actually do the reading?? I did as little reading as possible in school.” My thought was, yes, because I am not paying tuition and book fees just for a certain letter on a piece of paper, I’m paying for the knowledge. As I think back at my peers during my time as a student in all ages, the consensus seemed to be aligned with my coworkers, that the goal was the grades, not the knowledge. I think about halfway through my undergrad, I became less concerned with the grades and even in a few instances sacrificed a better grade for a better learning experience. For example, I took classes that were intimidating to me because I knew that, even if I only squeaked by with barely a passing grade, the knowledge I gained would be worth it. I also started writing my papers less to please the professor and more to better my understanding of the content. Once I started doing these things, my learning experience was greatly heightened and I got much more out of my learning experience. I’m not sure how to translate that to the my students but it’s something I definitely want to communicate with them and something that will influence how I grade because I will be more concerned with engagement and growth than with thinking how I the teacher want them to think.

“But the apparent contradiction dissolves once we recognize the very specific, and rather peculiar, meaning Dreikurs gives to democracy. In a pivotal sentence, he declares: “It is autocratic to force, but democratic to induce compliance” (Dreikurs et al. 1982, p. 67; emphasis added). And later: “Children should be stimulated to want to conform” (pp. 85–86). Given this perspective, it makes sense that discussion sessions would be used strategically by teachers to “induce compliance.” Dreikurs is decidedly not talking about offering students a genuine opportunity to participate in decision making,” (Kohn, pg 64).

This is anything thing I have been chewing on: the idea of a democratic classroom and how often in our society we are told we are participating in a democracy but in actuality we are in more of an autocracy and therefore the meaning of democracy becomes lost. I am reminded of a really good episode in the Scene On Radio podcast series about democracy in the schools and how a democratic classroom can actually teach students how to participate in a real democracy, but how rare but needed this sort of classroom is. Definitely highly recommend giving it a listen. (Seasons 2 and 4 are particularly great if you have the time). https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/scene-on-radio/id1036276968?i=1000474466799 My question for you all is; how does grading/learning tie in with ideas of a democratic/autocratic or compliance in the classroom, and in what ways can we build honesty and transparency into our classroom management and structure as teachers? Also is a true democracy even realistic in a classroom, especially for younger students?

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It doesn't take much effort to find people who feel disillusioned with our political system even before our current political climate. What I have found when talking to my peers is a sense of apathy that stems from the feeling that they themselves as an individual have little to no impact on our governing bodies. My wife has a tendency to believe that she plays no civic role whereas I like to argue that that mentality is effective in dividing us and preventing the true power that comes about when we reimagine ourselves as a collective whole. This sense of a loss of power might be mitigated by Pinto’s (2013) idea that “if we take the creation of responsible citizens seriously, then we need to help students develop civic skills while also aiming to encourage self-disciplined, responsible people who never blindly comply with the demands of an authority figure as a democratic end” (p. 82). I don't think it's odd that Pinto addresses the possibility of children learning to be obedient for the sake of ‘creating an environment conducive for learning' developing into adults who are passive in instrumental decisions that dictate their community’s lives. If we spend our formative years under the guidance of instructors utilizing what Pinto (2013) details as the discipline focus and as the gatekeeper of what’s worthy of learning, then is it not plausible that developing one’s own thoughts and the ability to question authority is minimized in the name of maximizing the amount of learned content? I usually feel like this mindset comes off as conspiratorial? That’s not the word, but I think it elicits the same reaction. Maybe angsty? Not attuned with how the actual world operates? Either way I think that what Pinto is getting at addresses the idea of not treating children in the traditional sense as, well, children, but as adults who are developing and learning and formulating ideas of the world around them. By treating them as such and creating an environment that mirrors our actual culture might create these young adults who participate and are unified instead of feeling divided and unimportant. Or maybe we live in a more authoritarian society than I originally thought.