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From Dismantling Racism: A Workbook for Social Change Groups, by Kenneth Jones and Tema Okun, ChangeWork, 2001

This is a list of characteristics of white supremacy culture which show up in our organizations. Culture is powerful precisely because it is so present and at the same time so very difficult to name or identify. The characteristics listed below are damaging because they are used as norms and standards without being pro-actively named or chosen by the group. They are damaging because they promote white supremacy thinking. They are damaging to both people of color and to white people. Organizations that are people of color led or a majority people of color can also demonstrate many damaging characteristics of white supremacy culture.

Perfectionism

little appreciation expressed among people for the work that others are doing; appreciation that is expressed usually directed to those who get most of the credit anyway

more common is to point out either how the person or work is inadequate

or even more common, to talk to others about the inadequacies of a person or their work without ever talking directly to them

mistakes are seen as personal, i.e. they reflect badly on the person making them as opposed to being seen for what they are mistakes

making a mistake is confused with being a mistake, doing wrong with being wrong

little time, energy, or money put into reflection or identifying lessons learned that can improve practice, in other words little or no learning from mistakes

tendency to identify whats wrong; little ability to identify, name, and appreciate whats right

antidotes: develop a culture of appreciation, where the organization takes time to make sure that peoples work and efforts are appreciated; develop a learning organization, where it is expected that everyone will make mistakes and those mistakes offer opportunities for learning; create an environment where people can recognize that mistakes sometimes lead to positive results; separate the person from the mistake; when offering feedback, always speak to the things that went well before offering criticism; ask people to offer specific suggestions for how to do things differently when offering criticism
Sense of Urgency

continued sense of urgency that makes it difficult to take time to be inclusive, encourage democratic and/or thoughtful decision-making, to think long-term, to consider consequences

frequently results in sacrificing potential allies for quick or highly visible results, for example sacrificing interests of communities of color in order to win victories for white people (seen as default or norm community)

reinforced by funding proposals which promise too much work for too little money and by funders who expect too much for too little

antidotes: realistic workplans; leadership which understands that things take longer than anyone expects; discuss and plan for what it means to set goals of inclusivity and diversity, particularly in terms of time; learn from past experience how long things take; write realistic funding proposals with realistic time frames; be clear about how you will make good decisions in an atmosphere of urgency
Defensiveness
antidotes: understand that structure cannot in and of itself facilitate or prevent abuse; understand the link between defensiveness and fear (of losing power, losing face, losing comfort, losing privilege); work on your own defensiveness; name defensiveness as a problem when it is one; give people credit for being able to handle more than you think; discuss the ways in which defensiveness or resistance to new ideas gets in the way of the mission
Quantity Over Quality
antidotes: include process or quality goals in your planning; make sure your organization has a values statement which expresses the ways in which you want to do your work; make sure this is a living document and that people are using it in their day to day work; look for ways to measure process goals (for example if you have a goal of inclusivity, think about ways you can measure whether or not you have achieved that goal); learn to recognize those times when you need to get off the agenda in order to address peoples underlying concerns
Worship of the Written Word

if its not in a memo, it doesn't exist

the organization does not take into account or value other ways in which information gets shared

those with strong documentation and writing skills are more highly valued, even in organizations where ability to relate to others is key to the mission antidotes: take the time to analyze how people inside and outside the organization get and share information; figure out which things need to be written down and come up with alternative ways to document what is happening; work to recognize the contributions and skills that every person brings to the organization (for example, the ability to build relationships with those who are important to the organizations mission)

only one right way

the belief there is one right way to do things and once people are introduced to the right way, they will see the light and adopt it

when they do not adapt or change, then something is wrong with them (the other, those not changing), not with us (those who know the right way)

similar to the missionary who does not see value in the culture of other communities, sees only value in their beliefs about what is good

antidotes: accept that there are many ways to get to the same goal; once the group has made a decision about which way will be taken, honor that decision and see what you and the organization will learn from taking that way, even and especially if it is not the way you would have chosen; work on developing the ability to notice when people do things differently and how those different ways might improve your approach; look for the tendency for a group or a person to keep pushing the same point over and over out of a belief that there is only one right way and then name it; when working with communities from a different culture than yours or your organizations, be clear that you have some learning to do about the communities ways of doing; never assume that you or your organization know whats best for the community in isolation from meaningful relationships with that community
Paternalism
antidotes: make sure that everyone knows and understands who makes what decisions in the organization; make sure everyone knows and understands their level of responsibility and authority in the organization; include people who are affected by decisions in the decision-making
Either/Or Thinking
antidotes: notice when people use either/or language and push to come up with more than two alternatives; notice when people are simplifying complex issues, particularly when the stakes seem high or an urgent decision needs to be made; slow it down and encourage people to do a deeper analysis; when people are faced with an urgent decision, take a break and give people some breathing room to think creatively; avoid making decisions under extreme pressure
Power Hoarding
antidotes: include power sharing in your organizations values statement; discuss what good leadership looks like and make sure people understand that a good leader develops the power and skills of others; understand that change is inevitable and challenges to your leadership can be healthy and productive; make sure the organization is focused on the mission
Fear of Open Conflict

people in power are scared of conflict and try to ignore it or run from it

when someone raises an issue that causes discomfort, the response is to blame the person for raising the issue rather than to look at the issue which is actually causing the problem

emphasis on being polite

equating the raising of difficult issues with being impolite, rude, or out of line

antidotes: role play ways to handle conflict before conflict happens; distinguish between being polite and raising hard issues; don't require those who raise hard issues to raise them in acceptable ways, especially if you are using the ways in which issues are raised as an excuse not to address the issues being raised; once a conflict is resolved, take the opportunity to revisit it and see how it might have been handled differently
Individualism

little experience or comfort working as part of a team

people in organization believe they are responsible for solving problems alone

accountability, if any, goes up and down, not sideways to peers or to those the organization is set up to serve

desire for individual recognition and credit

leads to isolation

competition more highly valued than cooperation and where cooperation is valued, little time or resources devoted to developing skills in how to cooperate

creates a lack of accountability, as the organization values those who can get things done on their own without needing supervision or guidance antidotes: include teamwork as an important value in your values statement; make sure the organization is working towards shared goals and people understand how working together will improve performance; evaluate peoples ability to work in a team as well as their ability to get the job done; make sure that credit is given to all those who participate in an effort, not just the leaders or most public person; make people accountable as a group rather than as individuals; create a culture where people bring problems to the group; use staff meetings as a place to solve problems, not just a place to report activities

im the only one

connected to individualism, the belief that if something is going to get done right, I have to do it

little or no ability to delegate work to others

antidotes: evaluate people based on their ability to delegate to others; evaluate people based on their ability to work as part of a team to accomplish shared goals
Progress is Bigger, More

observed in systems of accountability and ways we determine success

progress is an organization which expands (adds staff, adds projects) or develops the ability to serve more people (regardless of how well they are serving them)

gives no value, not even negative value, to its cost, for example, increased accountability to funders as the budget grows, ways in which those we serve may be exploited, excluded, or underserved as we focus on how many we are serving instead of quality of service or values created by the ways in which we serve

antidotes: create Seventh Generation thinking by asking how the actions of the group now will affect people seven generations from now; make sure that any cost/benefit analysis includes all the costs, not just the financial ones, for example the cost in morale, the cost in credibility, the cost in the use of resources; include process goals in your planning, for example make sure that your goals speak to how you want to do your work, not just what you want to do; ask those you work with and for to evaluate your performance
Objectivity
antidotes: realize that everybody has a world view and that everybodys world view affects the way they understand things; realize this means you too; push yourself to sit with discomfort when people are expressing themselves in ways which are not familiar to you; assume that everybody has a valid point and your job is to understand what that point is
Right to Comfort

the belief that those with power have a right to emotional and psychological comfort (another aspect of valuing logic over emotion)

scapegoating those who cause discomfort

equating individual acts of unfairness against white people with systemic racism which daily targets people of color

antidotes: understand that discomfort is at the root of all growth and learning; welcome it as much as you can; deepen your political analysis of racism and oppression so you have a strong understanding of how your personal experience and feelings fit into a larger picture; don't take everything personally

One of the purposes of listing characteristics of white supremacy culture is to point out how organizations which unconsciously use these characteristics as their norms and standards make it difficult, if not impossible, to open the door to other cultural norms and standards. As a result, many of our organizations, while saying we want to be multicultural, really only allow other people and cultures to come in if they adapt or conform to already existing cultural norms. Being able to identify and name the cultural norms and standards you want is a first step to making room for a truly multi-cultural organization.

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From Dismantling Racism: A Workbook for Social Change Groups, by Kenneth Jones and Tema Okun, ChangeWork, 2001 This is a list of characteristics of white supremacy culture which show up in our organizations. Culture is powerful precisely because it is so present and at the same time so very difficult to name or identify.

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My Life As An Undocumented Immigrant by Karell Roxas

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My Life As An Undocumented Immigrant by Karell Roxas

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Color blind or color brave? | Mellody Hobson

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I've spent over 20 years studying the emotions and experiences that bring meaning and purpose to our lives, and if there's one thing I've learned it's this: We are hardwired for connection, and connecting requires courage, vulnerability, and conversation. I want this to be a podcast that's real, unpolished, honest, and reflects both the magic and the messiness of what it means to be human. Episodes will include conversations with the people who are teaching me, challenging me, confusing me, or maybe even ticking me off a little. I'll also have direct conversations with you about what I'm learning from new research, and we'll do some episodes dedicated to answering your questions. We don't have to do life alone. We were never meant to.

I've spent over 20 years studying the emotions and experiences that bring meaning and purpose to our lives, and if there's one thing I've learned it's this: We are hardwired for connection, and connecting requires courage, vulnerability, and conversation. I want this to be a podcast that's real, unpolished, honest, and reflects both the magic and the messiness of what it means to be human. Episodes will include conversations with the people who are teaching me, challenging me, confusing me, or maybe even ticking me off a little. I'll also have direct conversations with you about what I'm learning from new research, and we'll do some episodes dedicated to answering your questions. We don't have to do life alone. We were never meant to.

Brene is magical

I don't know what it is about Brene but I feel like I know her when she speaks. I want to be her best friend because really she is one of mine. From her self care and self reflection to her real talk about race with POC... it's all good. I could listen to every single episode multiple times. Her famous thing is, "wait... say that again slower for every one." And sometimes I find myself saying to Brene, "wait! Say that again..." and I have to rewind just to play it over and over. Spectacular person and show and even more spectacular guests. ♥️

Laverne Cox

What an amazing inspiration!!! My story is different but the feelings are the same- she is fierce and focused and real and I want all of that!!! Thanks Brene-

Self movement

Must move forward from here and remain focus.

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‎Unlocking Us with Brené Brown on Apple Podcasts

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‎I've spent over 20 years studying the emotions and experiences that bring meaning and purpose to our lives, and if there's one thing I've learned it's this: We are hardwired for connection, and connecting requires courage, vulnerability, and conversation. I want this to be a podcast that's real, unp...

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Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie: The danger of a single story | TED

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Ideas and Innovations In Early Childhood Education

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Social injustices are so clearly on display right now. Protests are happening all over the country as part of the Black Lives Matter movement and are sparking conversations of racism in America. White adults pride themselves on shielding children from the "scary" world. They live in fantasy of color-blindness where race does not exist. They say children are too young to understand the nuanced way the world works, yet Black children do not have that privilege. Their families have to have these conversations young, because for many it could be the difference between life or death. Why should children of color have to carry the burden of these conversations, but White children get to go on living in their bubble of privilege?

Children make observations about "tough" topics like race, gender, and ability all the time. Adults hear these statements and address them with whispered voices signaling that those topics are not to be discussed. This seems harmless, but unless adults are taking the time to deconstruct these statements, the messages of inequity are reinforced and normalized (DiAngelo, 2018). Children are bombarded from birth with information about what the dominant cultures deem acceptable in society (Hyland, 2010). We condition children to believe that White perspectives are more valuable than those of people of color by providing resources written from White perspectives (Sensoy & DiAngelo, 2017). Anti-bias education goes beyond the surface level of diversity, and challenges systems of prejudice and oppression, stereotyping and bias (Derman-Sparks, 1989).

Social justice ensures all members of society have equitable access to both social and economic resources (Bell, 2007; Eacott, 2016). Social justice fights for equitable access to positions of power to the oppressed, so they can contribute and participate in a society that meets their needs (Bell, 2007). Social justice is often deemed too deep for children to understand, yet early childhood is when children are becoming aware of concepts of justice and equity. They are forming their own identities, and are looking to better understand the world around them. It is the adults that often feel uncomfortable confronting their own bias. Children are not too young to understand social justice and anti-bias concepts, adults are just uncomfortable talking about them. White adults are not protecting children, but are protecting themselves (Hall, 2011).

When children are asked to articulate their ideas surrounding social justice, they can wrestle with topics that appear to be beyond the grasps of even some adults. Adults constantly talk about how children will shape the future (Ryan, 2008). It is the job of the adults in their lives to provide them with the skill set to think critically about the world and empower them to advocate for what they believe in. We should not want them to just uphold the system the way it is, but make change toward a more equitable society and be allies for the oppressed.

So, what can we do as White caregivers for young children? It starts with educating yourself.

· Look through resources that explain privilege, prejudice and oppression

· Address your own implicit and explicit biases

· Find resources to help deepen your understanding without putting the emotional labor on Black people

· Compensate Black people who are doing the work to educate you, even if they are friends or family

· Own your privilege and understand that you will never know all the ways it has impacted you

· Listen and acknowledge when your White privilege has caused others harm, and committing to do better

Next, we have to create a space for children to have these conversations. Provide children with a selection of anti-bias resources, so they can begin to explore perspectives outside of the dominant narrative. Now is not the time to shy away from questions about race, but to lean into the conversation, and encourage children to think critically about inequity (Robinson, 2005). We need to stop telling them things will make sense when they get older because that is not always true. Providing our white children and students with anti-bias language is an essential step toward changing the systems of oppression, and gives them the skills to be better allies (Zakin, 2012). This involves teaching White children to stand behind Black people and amplifying their voices over their own.

It is easy as white adults to become comfortable with the way things are. To ignore our privileges and move on with our lives. It is time that we step out of what we have been conditioned to believe, and look internally at our complacency within an oppressive system. While these conversations may be uncomfortable to have, it is time that we start becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable. We need to strive for a more equitable society, and that starts with raising our children to be compassionate, empathic, and most importantly... aware.
Additional Resources: Your Kids Aren't Too Young to Talk About Race: Resource Roundup Anti-racism Resources for White People For Our White Friends Desiring to be Allies EmbraceRace: Raising a Brave Generation The Conscious Kid Violence Never Works? Really? How to Respond to "Riots Never Solve Anything!" References:
Bell, L. A. (2007). Theoretical foundations for social justice education. In Teaching for Diversity and Social Justice (pp. 1-14).

Derman-Sparks, L. (1989). Anti-bias curriculum: Tools for empowering young children. National Associations for the Education of Young Children.

DiAngelo, R. (2018). White fragility: Why it's so hard for white people to talk about racism. Beacon Press Books.

Eacott, S. (2016). Disruptions in production. In Ed.D. Programs as Incubators for Social Justice Leadership (pp. 1-13).

Hall, E., & Rudkin, K.J. (2011). The Special Estate of Children's Rights. Seen and heard: Children's rights in early childhood education. London, Ontario: Althouse Press. pp. 36- 49.

Hyland, N. (2010). Social justice in early childhood classrooms: What the research tells us. Young Children 65(1) 82-90.

Robinson, K. (2005). Doing anti-homophobia and anti-heterosexism in Early Childhood Education: moving beyond the immobilizing factors of 'risks', 'fears', and 'silences'. Can we afford not to? Contemporary Issues in Early Childhood 6(2) 175-188.

Ryan, P. (2008). How new is the 'new' social studies of childhood? The myth of the paradigm shift. Journal of Interdisciplinary History, 38(4), 553-576.

Sensoy, O., & DiAngelo, R. (2017). Critical thinking and critical theory. In Is Everyone Really Equal? (pp. 23-34).

Zakin, A. (2012). Hand to hand: Teaching tolerance and social justice one child at a time. Childhood Education, 88(1), 3-13. https://doi.org/10.1080/00094056.2012.643709

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Children Are Not Too Young, White Adults Are Just Uncomfortable: Why Adults Need to Talk About Injustice With Young Children by Nicole Willard - Ideas and Innovations In Early Childhood Education

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Social injustices are so clearly on display right now. Protests are happening all over the country as part of the Black Lives Matter movement and are sparking conversations of racism in America. White adults pride themselves on shielding children from the "scary" world. They live in fantasy of color

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Your Kids Aren't Too Young to Talk About Race: Resource Roundup - Pretty Good

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Your kids aren't too young to talk about race. Here are a few resources to get your started.

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Brené Brown: Hi everyone, I'm Brené Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. Today, I'm talking with Professor Ibram Kendi. He's a number one New York Times best-selling author and the Director of the Antiracist Research and Policy Center at American University. He's also an ideas columnist at The Atlantic and a correspondent with CBS News. He is the author of four books, including Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America, which won the National Book Award for Nonfiction. He has another book called, Stamped: Racism, Antiracism, and You, which he co-authored with Jason Reynolds, and it's a remix of the Stamped from the Beginning book that is meant for YA, teen readers - an incredible, incredible book. And he's got a new book coming out called Antiracist Baby, which is a board book that will be published this month in June. Completely evidence that it's never too early to start talking about anti-racism.

BB: He's also the author of How to Be an Antiracist, and that's what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about all those books, but we're going to really focus on How to Be an Antiracist, which is a groundbreaking approach to understanding and uprooting racism and inequality in our society and in ourselves. It's an incredible conversation. I welcome you to the table to sit with us, talk, think, feel, ask, question, and lean in really, really far to what we need to learn about ourselves and the world. I want to start this conversation with a quote from Professor Kendi: "By not running from books that pain us, we can allow them to transform us. I ran from antiracist books most of my life, but now I can't stop running after them, scrutinizing myself and my society, and in the process changing both." Let's jump in.

BB: Alright, first let me say that I am incredibly grateful for you joining us on Unlocking Us, thank you for that.

Ibram X. Kendi: Of course, I'm so happy to be on.

BB: I always start these podcasts with not the perfunctory, but the honest, "How are you?" How are you doing right now?

IK: I'm okay. This is quite the time in American history, and as someone who studies anti-Black racism, I'm simultaneously enraged to see the deathly effects of that racism, but simultaneously energized to see all of the people resisting that racism.

BB: How are you holding up with the COVID-19 pandemic on top of all of this, as the underscore to all of this?

IK: I think that that has been difficult for me, partly because my colleagues and I, we partnered with the COVID Tracking Project to build this COVID racial data tracker. And so we're... It's like the premier tracker of racial data on COVID. And so I'm seeing the data coming in and the disparities all over the country, and so that's been difficult. And then simultaneously, my wife, Sadiqa, her family is... Her hometown is Albany, Georgia, and Albany, Georgia and that general area of Southwest Georgia has one of the worst outbreaks in the country. And simultaneously, it's a trauma desert, it doesn't have a tremendous amount of high-quality healthcare, in contrast to New York City, which also of course has been a major outbreak. And so, seeing and hearing those stories firsthand of people suffering, obviously, it's been difficult. And this is a primarily Black area.

BB: I want to get into... I want to talk a lot about How to Be an Antiracist, your book that I think is life changing. I want to talk about your new book that's coming out in a couple of weeks. Tell us the title of that new book.

IK: Antiracist Baby. It's a board book.

BB: I can't wait. I want to start because when we talk about the pandemic, when we talk about what's happening right now in the world with a rebellion, the protest, you wrote an article that went up on The Atlantic this morning.

IK: Yes.

BB: It's called "The American Nightmare: To be Black and Conscious of Anti-Black Racism is to Stare Into The Mirror of Your Own Extinction." I want to... Can I read a piece of this to you and ask you about it?

IK: Sure, yeah.

BB: Would you rather read it or would you... Can I read it to you?

IK: Yeah, you can read it. That's fine, yeah.

BB: Okay. You're using as an epigraph, a quote from Malcom X from 1964, "We don't see any American dream. We've experienced only the American nightmare." And then you write, "A nightmare is essentially a horror story of danger, but it is not wholly a horror story. Black people experience joy, love, peace, safety. But as in any horror story, those unforgettable moments of toil, terror, and trauma have made danger essential to the Black experience in racist America. What one Black American experiences, many Black Americans experience. Black Americans are constantly stepping into the toil and terror and trauma of other Black Americans. Black Americans are constantly stepping into the souls of the dead because they know that could have been them, they are them. Because they know it is dangerous to be Black in America because racist Americans see Blacks as dangerous. To be Black and conscious of anti-Black racism is to stare into the mirror of your own extinction."

BB: This is not just about the police brutality; this is not just about Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd; this is about the tens of thousands of Black victims of Covid.

IK: Yeah.

BB: Talk to me about this article. What do we need to understand?

IK: Well, I think first and foremost, the article revolves around a very, very prominent book that was written in 1896 by Frederick Hoffman, who, basically it was a book of statistical tables and racial data that showed not only racial disparities in crime rates, but also racial disparities in infection rates and racial disparities in mortality, or I should say death rates, and so he took this massive amount of racial data to proclaim that Black people were not subjected to racist policies. That wasn't the cause of Black disease, of Black death, and even Black people being disproportionately arrested and incarcerated. He made the case that this data shows that Black people are headed towards gradual extinction, and it's their fault. They are by nature or behavior, a dangerous, diseased, dying people, and to recognize anything else is to not recognize the facts. And so this idea, normalizing Black pain and suffering and death has only continued to this day, and so essentially when you normalize, when you just believe that Black people should be disproportionally dying of police violence or even COVID-19, you're thereby not going to challenge, let alone look for the policies that are actually behind this disproportionate Black death.

IK: And so then those who are experiencing those policies that are then leading to that trauma and terror, and even toil, they're going to be experiencing the American nightmare. And the reason why I use the term the American nightmare is because Black people are constantly told that America is this land of equal opportunity, that police officers protect and serve, that we too have access to the American dream. And obviously, based on the experiences of Black people, we've really, as Malcolm said, 50 years ago, experienced the American nightmare.

BB: When you talk about the Hoffman book, it's such a devastating reminder to me, because I see this a lot right now of how statistics, academics, science can be dehumanizing tools as much as kind of the language that we use.

IK: Yeah, without question. And let me give an example. So when we first were able to start getting states in early April to release racial data, and then we saw these racial disparities. We saw that Black people were disproportionately being infected and even dying, of COVID. The first response of people to that data, of many people to that data, was to say Black people are not taking the virus seriously, Black people are not socially distancing, there's something wrong with Black people, and then we were able to disprove that. Basically survey data in mid-March had already proven that actually Black people were taking the virus more seriously than white people. So then it's zeroed in to, well, it must be the result of Black pre-existing conditions.

IK: And then those pre-existing conditions are caused by Black people making disproportionately bad or unhealthy behaviors. So it just always, essentially, you take these racial disparities, and we've been arguing over their existence, even before Frederick Hoffman. Is it because there's something wrong with Black people, or is there racist policy? And those who believe we live in a nation that's post-racial, that there's equal opportunity, they're not going to ever see the racist policies that are even in many cases, hard to see, instead they're just going to blame Black people.

BB: It's almost, and I don't think it's almost, it is the confirmation bias of racist beliefs.

IK: It is, yeah, it is. And that's what's striking about Frederick Hoffman, because he opens his book arguing that, "I am free of bias. I am free of prejudice or sentimentally."

BB: Which should be our first flag, right?

[chuckle]

IK: Exactly, right. And then, ends the book stating that the gradual extinction of Black people is only a matter of time, and it's based on the data. And to give another example, you have many people arguing that police violence, disproportionate police violence is the result of Black people being disproportionately violent, and Black people are disproportionately violent, they say, because, well, just look at the violent crime data. There's this widespread belief that Black neighborhoods are more dangerous because of violent crime data, the same violent crime data that Frederick Hoffman in this book in 1896 really popularized. But what Americans don't realize, and this is what I've been trying to get people to see, is that there's no relationship between the violent crime in those neighborhoods and the Blackness of the people.

IK: In other words, people believe that the reason why those neighborhoods are violent is because there are Black people there, and that's why when they see Black neighborhoods, they assume that those neighborhoods are violent because the Black people and their culture and their behavior and even their genetics are predisposed to violence. But if that was the case, then all Black neighborhoods would have the same levels of violent crime. In other words, higher income...

BB: Because that would be the... Yeah, that would be the consistent variable.

IK: Precisely. And so, higher income Black neighborhoods would have the same levels of violent crime as extremely impoverished Black neighborhoods. That is not the case. And it's not the case in white America, it's not the case in Asian America, Native America, Latinx America. In every America, if we want to split up America racially, you have higher levels of poverty, long-term unemployment, you're going to have higher levels of violent crime, whether you're talking about a white community or neighborhood with higher levels of violent crime or Latinx or Black. So we know statistically that actually what is the consistent variable is poverty and unemployment. But people still want to call these dangerous Black neighborhoods as opposed to dangerous unemployed neighborhoods.

BB: One of the things that I find so powerful about your work, there are many things, but one of the things I find so powerful is your ability to unpack things, lay them out, and the steps always lead back to policy. It always leads back to systemic policy.

IK: And I think that's one of the things I'm trying to get people to realize, and especially, I think one of the things that happens with our discussions on race is we personalize groups, meaning we make groups into individuals, and, even though every group is made up of individuals, we say, "Oh well, this group is disproportionately obese, so therefore, why can't this group "diet or exercise more" in the way I used to do when I weighed a little bit more. But that's actually... We can't think of groups as individuals, when we think of... Especially we can't think of disparities as the result of the personal choices of the individuals in groups, because I think that's what happens, that's how we have been misled into believing, but when we actually... All of the data points to and all of the analysis points to, is that when you have two groups, there's going to be all different types of behaviors in both groups, whether that...

BB: Complete variance, right?

IK: Precisely. So you take white people and Black people, you have white people who eat unhealthy, you have white people who are vegans, you have Black people who eat in an unhealthy manner, and then you have Black people like me who are vegans. And so... And then you have vegans who are white, who don't really eat vegetables. Right? And so it's so much variable, and so we emphasize the negativities that we see among those individuals who are Black, and then ignore the negativities among the individuals who are white. And so we say, "Oh, those Black folk and their soul food, that's why they're unhealthy," as if you don't have white people who gathered this weekend and had hamburgers and hot dogs only on their barbeque menu. So I think that it's critically important for us when we think of groups and group inequality, to recognize that what changes communities, what changes groups, it's not their individual behaviors, it's policy change.

BB: I want to slow down here and go into slow motion for a moment, because, what you're saying is so profoundly important at the crux of, I think, of your entire book. And for me as a researcher, it's... We take groups and we take stereotypes and characteristics of groups, and what it seems to me that we do, and I think you write about this, but I want to check in with you to make sure I'm understanding it correctly because this is what I see. We see the most kind of negative, socially agreed upon, not good characteristics of groups of color, and we assign it to the entire group. Then we take the best characteristics of one or two people in the white folk group and assign it to that entire group. That's true, right? You see that...

IK: Exactly. So that's what I talk about how we generalize the individual negativities of people of color while we individualize the individual negativities of white people.

BB: And you know what keeps coming back to me, and I'm going to date myself with this because this was a huge raging issue as I was in school and then graduate work: the bell curve is such an example of the manipulation of statistical data to confirm a racist hypothesis. Okay. Yeah, I just... You know what? We do that. We do that. I can think of times when I do that, maybe not about race, but I do do that with... I'll tell you where I do it. I do it with political identity. I take the best part of the people I see in my group and assign it to everyone in my group. And the worst part, and it's so self-protective and self-destructive at the same time, isn't it?

IK: It is. It is. And I know How to Be an Antiracist, in particular, I remember giving a talk about this book, I believe I was in Gainesville, Florida, and this woman who was obviously a Republican or a conservative, got up during the Q&A and basically challenged me, basically by saying, "You're just another liberal who is just criticizing conservatives completely and never being able to look back on the problems of things that liberals do." And I was like, "Did you read the book?" [laughter] Because obviously, you didn't read the book, because the book was just as critical of people who identify as liberals or Democrats as people who identify as conservatives and Republicans.

BB: I want to read something from the book, early-on pages. Is it weird when I read to you? Is it okay?

IK: It's fine, yeah.

BB: Okay. "The good news is that racist and antiracist are not fixed identities. We can be a racist one minute and be an antiracist the next. What we say about race, what we do about race in each moment determines what, not who, we are." And you write, "I used to be racist most of the time. I am changing. I am no longer identifying with racists by claiming to be not racist. I am no longer speaking through the mask of racial neutrality. I am no longer manipulated by racist ideas to see racial groups as problems. I no longer believe a Black person cannot be racist, I am no longer policing my every action around an imagined white or Black judge trying to convince white people of my equal humanity, trying to convince Black people, I am representing the race well." This book is incredibly vulnerable in terms of you sharing your own experiences. Why was that important to you as you were writing this?

IK: So, I remember when I was thinking about this book and I was sort of thinking about the pulse of the book, even the heartbeat of the book. I recognize that the heartbeat, historically, of racism has been denial, has been to deny that one's ideas are racist, one's policies are racist, and certainly that one's self and one's nation is racist, and so then I was like, "Okay, by contrast, the heartbeat of antiracism is confession, is admission, is acknowledgement, is the willingness to be vulnerable, is the willingness to identify the times in which we are being racist, is to be willing to diagnose ourselves and our country, and our ideas, and our policies." And the reason why that's the heartbeat is because, like with anything else, the first step is acknowledging the problem. We can't even begin the process of changing ourselves, of acting in an antiracist fashion, if we're not even willing to admit the times in which we're being racist. And so I realize that essentially to be antiracist is to admit when we're being racist. And so I realize that in order to really give voice to that, in order to really model that for people I had to do that to myself and for myself.

BB: And you do it, and you do it throughout the book and you move forward a bunch and you slide back, and you share that with us. To me, that is the heart of the book, that there is such a deep humanity in this book. Was that intentional on your part? Did you write it from a perspective of, "This is what it means to be in the human struggle?"

IK: I think so. And I mean, I think that, to be honest, the first few chapters were a huge struggle for me to write, precisely because of how vulnerable I had to be and how many... I had to basically admit and chronicle some of the most shameful moments of my life, especially as someone who was raised in a home to value and love Black people, to be able to have to write about those times in which I did not value or love Black people, let alone other groups, was very, very difficult. And so it really wasn't... And so I think I struggled and it actually... I think the first few chapters, it took me almost like a year to write, and it really wasn't until as I write about in the end of the book that I was diagnosed with cancer, that I just wondered whether indeed I would even live to see the book come out, and I think because of that, in a way freed me to be vulnerable and to be completely sort of open and naked in writing the book.

BB: Yeah, there's just courage on every page. I mean, really, and I have to say you don't see that very often in books. You don't see that very often in the world, so thank you for that. I think the central message is that the opposite of racist isn't not racist, The true opposite of racist is antiracist. Can you break that down for us and help us understand how the opposite of racist is not, not race... Not racist is not the opposite of racist.

IK: Sure, so I think... Let me say it in this way. So when you think of... So I define a racist as someone who is expressing racist ideas or supporting racist policies with their action or inaction, I know we're not supposed to use terms in the definition, but I think what's critical about understanding what it means to be racist is understanding what a racist idea is, and what a racist policy is. And once you understand what a racist idea and racist policy is, you begin to realize that there's a fundamental contrast to that, and that contrast is not some sort of neutrality. And so if a racist idea is any idea that suggests a racial group is superior or inferior to another racial group... In other words, a racist idea connotes racial hierarchy, then what's the opposite of that? The opposite of that is ideas that connote racial equality, that challenges directly that idea of racial hierarchy and says, "No. All the racial groups are equals."

IK: And there's no in between racial hierarchy and racial equality. Either all the racial groups are equals, or certain racial groups are better or worse than others. And so there's no not racist idea, there's only a racist idea and an antiracist idea. And the same thing with policy. If a racist policy is leading to racial inequity, then an antiracist policy is leading to racial equity. There's no in between inequity or equity, and if racist policies lead to injustice, then by contrast, antiracist policies lead to justice. There's no in between injustice or justice. And so then when you take a person, you have people who are either expressing racist or antiracist ideas. So in any given moment, they're either being racist or antiracist, there's no not racist sort of category.

IK: And then I should also add very quickly that when people typically say, "I am not racist," it is in response to someone challenging something that they just did or said that indeed probably was racist. So again, I mentioned how the heartbeat, or in order to be antiracist, we have to be willing to admit the times in which we're being racist. By contrast, in order to be racist, we never admit the times in which we're being racist, and instead we say we're not racist.

BB: I have a couple of questions. So what do you say to the person who when you say we're either racist or antiracist to the person who says, "That's a false dichotomy. There can be neutrality between antiracist and race, there can be neutrality between injust and just, between inequality and equity or equality." I can't find what that neutrality is. But I would really love to know how you answer that because I get that a lot, especially when I quote you, but I can't think of a single example, because the systems are already in place. So if we were at net zero, how does that... I mean, it may be so but we're not, so what do you answer?

IK: Yeah so I state that are you... I would... So people have asked me asked that, and typically what I state say is, "Are you stating that because from a defensive posture?" In other words, you don't want to identify as racist, and you view those antiracists in some way that you don't want to sort of identify with. So this is fundamentally defensive so you can create a category for yourself. And typically, we know when people are creating categories for themselves because you can't define your category. And so are you creating this category for us, or are you creating this category for yourself? And if you're creating it for us, then define it for us, so we can understand it.

IK: What does it mean to be not racist? I know what it means to be racist. I know what it means to be antiracist. What does it mean to be not racist? And if you can't provide a very clear and consistent definition, then that shows me that you're fundamentally being defensive, and you're fundamentally seeking to create a category for yourself.

BB: That is so powerful, and starting with the defensive posturing that I think there are people that don't want to be in the racist category of course, because there's so much shame attached to that.

IK: Yeah.

BB: And they don't want to be in the antiracist category because there's so much frickin work attached to that.

IK: Yes.

BB: Do you know what I mean?

IK: Yes.

BB: Like antiracism work is, no joke, exhausting and vigilant, and there's shame in it too because it's... So it's interesting because - can we dig into something that is kind of at the intersection of your work and my work to help me figure out something?

IK: Sure.

BB: You don't seem to be... And I've only read this book and a couple of articles that you've written or maybe three or four articles from The Atlantic, but I will be getting the baby board book for sure. And it'll become my new go-to, like, I'm looking at Barrett, who's in here with me. She's like, "This will be the new. Every baby we know will be getting this book." You don't seem to be a proponent of shame as a social justice tool.

IK: No.

BB: So, let me ask you this question because I think this goes to the creating categories out of defensiveness. One of the things that I've seen and I see it a lot, I see it a lot in my social feeds, I see it a lot when I have really difficult Q&As when I'm on book tours. Let's say you and I are talking, and I share a racist idea, or I make a racist statement, and you hold me accountable for that. Right? Which is fair. You question and we dig in. But you say... I am going to feel shame about that, for most, I think most, maybe not all, but most white, I hope, most white Americans, or maybe Americans in general will feel shame about being held accountable for racist thinking or thoughts or speaking, then I go into shame. But what I'm struggling helping people understand and maybe you can share your thoughts on it with us is being held accountable for racism and experiencing shame around that, is not the same as being shamed about racism.

IK: Mm-hmm, yeah.

BB: Does that makes sense to you at all? Or am I off? I don't know.

IK: No, I think it makes sense. And I think that... Well, two things I'm trying to think of what to say first because I feel like I'll forget the other. Do you ever feel that way?

BB: All the time.

IK: So I think one thing is that... So if we talk about racist ideas, to grow up in America is to grow up, and for racist ideas to constantly be rained on your head and you have no umbrella. And you don't even know that you're wet with those racist ideas, because the racist ideas themselves cause you to imagine that you're dry.

BB: Right.

IK: And then someone comes along and says, "You know what, you're wet, and these ideas are still raining on your head. Here's an umbrella." You can be like, "Thank you, I didn't even realize I was drenched."

BB: Yeah, yeah.

IK: And then with all these ideas, and then the question, this is why I don't think people should feel ashamed, is there were other people and very powerful people in a history that was constantly raining those ideas on your head, and so what that means is, for instance if you're a white American, who has racist ideas, and then you, let's say, perpetuated those ideas by, let's say, not hiring a Black person because you thought they were lazy. You were simultaneously a victim and a victimizer. And so I think it's critical for people to recognize that literally, and as I talk about in How to Be an Antiracist, there's a specific reason why you had so many powerful Americans trying to convince white Americans that Black people were inferior; it was out of their own self interest.

BB: Yeah.

IK: And so then, white Americans and other Americans were tricked into believing that Black people should be enslaved in 1855, and then meanwhile poor whites, whose poverty was directly the result of the riches of white slaveholders were like, "Yeah, it should be this way." And so then those people were able to get richer and richer, and so me coming to that poor white person who believes Black people should be enslaved and then who have even sort of worked on slave patrols and brutalized Black people trying to run away, I'm basically coming to them and saying, "Here is the way you were a victimizer and here is the way you were a victim." And it's critically important, I think, for people to understand, people have been tricked, they've been manipulated, they've been hoodwinked, and that's why I think, that's what I'd want people to realize.

BB: Yeah, thank you for the umbrella. I didn't know I was wet. I think that might be where we lose people.

IK: Yeah.

BB: Wow. Do you ever... I think about this, I think my background is in social work, so I have my master's in social work and PhD in social work, and my bachelor's too, and so I've probably taken 20 classes on the nature of oppression. I guess the thing that always strikes me about oppression as a construct, and I know I'm going to personify it, and I know this is probably not right, but I would love your thoughts on it because I've tried to figure it out for so many years is, God, it's so hard to fight because it has an answer for everything, like it is...

IK: Yeah, yeah.

BB: Do you know what I mean?

IK: Mm-hmm.

BB: Like, it's such a formidable foe. It's like every time, like when you said to me, I got goosebumps when you said, "It's raining on you. But part of what it's raining on you is the message that you're dry."

IK: Mm-hmm.

BB: It is such a formidable foe, isn't it?

IK: It is, and that I think that it's critically important. What I'm trying to do is bring people back into reality, right? So they can realize that it's being rained on them, that that rain is coming down on their head, that they're slipping and falling and harming people in ways that they don't even realize. And when you step that back into reality, then you can actually recognize what's actually happening to you and what you're doing to other people. And then you can also begin to see how and why you have people protesting all over this country and why people are enraged and why that resistance is going to continue. Literally racist ideas, literally separate people from reality, and it prevents people, even too, from helping themselves.

IK: And so I talked a lot in my book about the ways in which even you have Black elites who believe ideas about the Black poor and who sort of reproduce racist ideas about the Black poor, not realizing that racist policies against them are being justified through ideas about the Black poor, or you have white Americans who are believing in racist ideas that these people of color will just use and abuse and take advantage of so-called social entitlement programs like Medicare for All, or increasing Social Security funding, or basic income, or other... Or paid leave, things that other countries have. And so therefore, I don't want none of that. And then it results in them not having the social safety net when they fall, their friends not having it, their family not having it, and then when they fall and become hurt, then they're told it's immigrants' fault. And so it's this constant sort of people being hurt...

BB: God.

IK: And then they believing that it's these other people who are the source of their pain, as opposed to the people who they actually support, who are the source of their pain.

BB: I'm a terrible podcast host, because I'm sitting here with my hands over my mouth, and that's not... I can't do that, but that's my response to this. I read an article, I think it was during the 2016 election, all I can remember is an MD-PhD, public health person, and I think the name of the article is: "Racism is Killing White People." And it's because they were voting against the very things, the services, and the safety nets that they themselves will need just because of the racist rhetoric that they attached to it.

IK: Exactly.

BB: It's...

IK: Yeah, Jonathan Metzl and that's based on his book Dying of Whiteness. And he talked about...

BB: Is that the who that... Is he an MD? Is that the one I'm talking about?

IK: MD-PhD, yes, yeah.

BB: My husband's a pediatrician, I think I read it in, there was an excerpt of something in American Pediatrics or something. So tell us who that was and what that book was, and we'll put it on our show notes.

IK: So yeah, it's Jonathan Metzl, who's a MD-PhD, I believe at Vanderbilt, and his book was entitled Dying of Whiteness, and he looks at the white resistance to the extension of ObamaCare or even the extension of Medicaid in particular states and how that not only harmed, obviously people of color disproportionately, but even white people, and how the resistance to creating more insurance and affordable healthcare has harmed white people, let alone people of color, or even probably the most striking aspect of that book was so he not only looked at healthcare, but even the massive debate currently over gun control.

BB: Gun control.

IK: And gun safety and gun rights, and how first and foremost, you've had white men who have been advocating for the reduction or elimination of gun safety laws so that they can arm themselves, so that they can protect their families against Muslim terrorists and Black criminals and LatinX invaders as they call them. And what's fascinating is those very states where they've been able to successfully eliminate these gun safety policies, it's led to a massive surge in people being killed, white men being killed by hand gun via suicide, so the very people, white men who've been pushing for the reduction in gun safety laws have then led to them, given them greater ability to accumulate guns, and they've used those guns to kill themselves, so literally, people are dying of whiteness.

BB: Can I just ask you just like a no bullshit question here?

IK: Mm-hmm.

BB: Why does that make so much sense to some of us and no sense, it seems, to other people? Why do some of us see the through line and some of us don't see the through line? Do you understand what I'm asking? It's a weird question.

IK: Yeah, yeah. I think first and foremost, because we're living in different sort of realities, and so, for many of these white men who are advocating, who are proud card-carrying members of the NRA, who are advocating for the accumulation of weapons by white men, they believe... I should say they've been made to believe that the cause of their own personal pain, the reasons why they're struggling in society or they do don't have more than they already have, is because of these immigrants and these people of color. They also generalize, when there's a Black person who commits murder, or a LatinX immigrant or a terrorist who commits murder, in their mind, those are the central sort of problems that are harming America and are threatening them. And so they're in tremendous amounts of fear, because they're constantly told by their politicians, by the people they listen to, that these are the people you should fear, and then they're told, "Your rights are being taken away. White men are being chastised and criticized, and demeaned by women, by people of color, by everybody, and so we are your defenders and you need to defend yourself through these weapons."

IK: And, but then what's happening is they're actually getting these weapons and killing themselves, and then all of those individual suicides are individualized, so there's not this collective national outcry about the incredible level of white men who are committing suicide, because, again, if something bad happens to white people, it's individualized.

BB: I've just been thinking a lot about your book around the How to Be an Antiracist book, and I've been thinking about how there is a very short distance in my mind between the dehumanizing dog whistle language from this administration to calling the cops on a bird watcher, to George Floyd. And it's my training, again, I think in social work systems theory, that these things lie on a continuum, but that that walk is very short between these things. Do you agree with that or disagree with that?

IK: Oh yeah, I agree. I mean, I actually tweeted out last week after we heard about what happened to George Floyd, that we should be seeing that, I think I said something to the... Well, let me just say the idea, and that is, when it comes to police violence, oftentimes the beginning of police violence is someone, and in this case, a white woman calling the police saying, "A Black male is threatening my life. I need your help, come help me," when indeed she is actually the person who's threatening the other person, but anyway, she calls up the police, and then the police come, imagining that there's this so-called Black super predator who's preying on this innocent white woman, and that it is their job principally to protect them, and so, then they come imagining the need for force. And then Christian Cooper ends up as George Floyd in Minneapolis.

BB: In a split second.

IK: In which an unarmed person is now dead. And so, there's a very straight line from Central Park to Minneapolis, and we understand because that was essentially the lynching era, but that lynching era has continued.

BB: And I think I would back the line up, because I think for me, a big part of my studies was dehumanization and the process, and the very invisible process of dehumanizing, which every genocide in recorded history starts with dehumanizing and starts with language. So when we hear things like, when we talk about immigrants and the White House uses words like infestation, and when we use words like... I don't even think I've ever heard white people referred to as thugs in my life. It's people have a very hard time understanding that once we move people outside of what we believe is humanity, that it's possible to do anything to them.

IK: It is. And I think that is the reason why when you have those racist ideas that cause you to demonize people of color, and then that is combined with racist policies that are over-policing their neighborhoods, or allowing police officers who kill them to not be prosecuted, or to get off, it only continues this cycle that not only do they not matter to me, they don't even matter to the state.

BB: Right. You wrote something, I think this was a quote from the New York Times, and I feel like I could talk to you for... I hope you come back again, and we can talk more about all the great policy change that's happening. That's what I'm hoping.

IK: That's what I'm hoping, too.

BB: But I want to read this quote because and it says, "By not running from the books that pain us, we can allow them to transform us." This is a quote from you. "I ran from antiracist books most of my life. But now I can't stop running after them, scrutinizing myself and my society, and in the process changing both."

IK: That's what we need to be doing. I think many of us have learned, even from your work, we have to be constantly growing. We cannot harden ourselves, and certainly our children into, "They're stupid or we're stupid." We have to say, "You know what, that was not a smart thing that I did or said. That was a racist act. But I am not essentially a racist." No one is. Everyone has the capacity to change, everyone has the capacity to be antiracist. Everyone has the capacity to grow. And if we're not growing as human beings, then what are we? What's distinguishing humans from other beings? It's that capacity for self-awareness and growth.

BB: That's right, meaning making. I always go back to that quote from Shawshank Redemption, "Get busy living or get busy dying." And I think if you're not learning and growing, which can be painful, stretch marks, bruises, you're dying in a way. Okay, Ibram, walk me through, because I really want to get one of your books for my soon to be 15-year-old son, and so tell me about the sequence of Stamped from the Beginning. Is there a YA version?

IK: Yes.

BB: So how does it work?

IK: So when I wrote Stamped from the Beginning, which again, chronicled this history of racist ideas, literally from their origins to the present, so upwards of 600 years of history, people would come up to me and say, "You know what, I wish I would have learned this in middle school, in high school. I didn't understand and know this history." And so, people kept telling me that, "You know what, this book needs to be before every middle schooler and high schooler." And so we decided that, "Let's create one." And Stamped from the Beginning is upwards of 500 pages, and so we decided we needed a specific book. And so I asked Jason Reynolds, who's, he's probably one of the more gifted YA novelists, who historically has written on race and racism, and he has his own voice and his own style. And I asked him a couple of times, he said no a couple of times, but eventually he agreed, and so he took Stamped from the Beginning, and completely rewrote it for young people in their voice, in his patented lyricism. And yeah, they've fallen in love with it. It actually debuted number one New York Times, so yeah, people are really responding to it well.

BB: You know what I love, is it's never too early to talk to our kids about this. And now you've given us the gifts of a board book, a YA book, and then books for adults.

IK: And that's, I want, especially in this moment, when there are a lot of people who want tools for not only understanding racism themselves, but even teaching and instructing their kids, and I'm hoping also that people realize that they should be having these discussions with their children. Their children are not color blind. The data shows that children as early as six months recognize race, and children as early as two to three years old have begun to consume racist ideas. And if you're not teaching those children antiracist ideas, if you're not challenging those racist ideas, and they're only going to grow up and then one day say something, you're going to feel completely embarrassed. Because like with anything else, people have to be taught to be antiracist, just as they're taught, indirectly, by so many things they see and experience and hear, to be racist.

BB: And I think it's been also my experience that, when you don't... The biggest mistake a lot of people I see making, is we don't talk about race, but we've raised nice and kind kids, so we assume that that's going to translate to something, and it translates to nothing, except the messaging that it's scary and not okay to talk about race.

IK: Exactly. Yeah, if the modeling... Can you imagine, there are adults, and many adults who struggle to talk about race and racism, and... But could you imagine if those adults were talking about these issues as early as 2 or 3, or 1, or as soon as you can speak, then... And I think, part of this also, is, as I'm learning on thinking through how to parent my child, of course, we've learned from you, and one of the things we're trying to model for her, is how to have difficult, uncomfortable conversations and how necessary those conversations are for her having a healthy, happy, and productive and impactful sort of life. And so this talking about race and racism is one type of difficult conversation we need to teach her how to have.

BB: Yeah, and, God, I just don't think there's a bigger gift that we... On top of knowing that you're loved and worthy of love and belonging, I don't know if there's a greater gift that we can give our kids, than the ability to lean into difficult conversation and to be vulnerable. Yeah. Okay, I have this last 10 rapid fire, and it's really important, it's more lighthearted, but it's about getting to know you as a person, and I think, sometimes, one of the hardest things about being an activist is not being seen as a person and can be sometimes dehumanizing in its own way. So if you would allow me, I'd love to ask you these 10 questions.

IK: Sure. Yeah. Let's do it.

BB: Okay, ready? Number one's fill in the blank. Vulnerability is?

IK: Courageous.

BB: Number two, you're called to do something brave, but your fear is real and it's stuck right in your throat. What's the first thing you do?

IK: Think about what the right thing to do is, and focus on that, rather than my fear.

BB: What is something that people often get wrong about you?

IK: That I'm very, very serious and angry all the time.

[chuckle]

BB: Okay. What's the last show that you binged and loved?

IK: That we binged, let's see. Probably... Oh, God, what's the show that was the... Probably the lead show on HBO, that just ended. I'm forgetting the name of it.

BB: Game of Thrones?

IK: Game of Thrones, yes.

BB: Okay, got it.

IK: Game of Thrones. So, literally... So, my wife and I, we hadn't seen it at all, any of the episodes, and we just binge-watched it late last year, and we both really liked it, except the ending, of course, but...

BB: Now, that's a binge, that's a hella binge right there, if you watched it all. Okay, a film that you really love?

IK: So I think, one of the films that I really love, particularly in context to our conversation, is After Earth, which was a movie with Will Smith and his son, in which they are sort of lost on this mysterious sort of planet, and he's hurt, and they have to figure out a way to elude people, or I should say beings and beasts that are trying to kill them. And Will is seeking to really get his son, and speak through his son, to get his son to essentially get them both to safety because he's hurt. And I remember at one point, he's trying to encourage him to face this dangerous, or horrible sort of villain beast that sort of makes up the movie, and he says something to the effect that, "Fear is not real. Danger is real, but fear is a choice," and he obviously wanted him to make a different choice.

BB: God, what a quote.

IK: Yeah.

BB: Okay, a concert that you'll never forget.

IK: Probably... So I... One of my favorite groups in the '90s, when I was growing up, was Jagged Edge, this R&B group, and so I was able to not only see them in concert, but even meet them when I was a freshman... Oh, not a freshman, when I was at FAMU, where I did my undergrad in Tallahassee, Florida.

BB: Favorite meal.

IK: So I'd say my favorite food now is probably avocado, and it's fascinating because I only really started eating avocado probably in the last five years, and one day... And I'm the type of person, if it doesn't look good to me, then I'm not going to want to eat it, and so, since it was green, I'm like, how could... It just looks weird. But then one day I tried it, and I haven't looked back since.

BB: The rest is history, avocado history. Okay, what's on your nightstand right now?

IK: Where... Oh.

BB: He's literally looking at it.

IK: Yeah. What the Eyes Don't See.

BB: Okay.

IK: Which is "A Story of Crisis, Resistance and Hope in an American city," by Mona Hanna-Attisha, which essentially is the story of the Flint water crisis, and how this pediatrician was very critical in not only sort of breaking the problem or demonstrating the problem, but even seeking to lead its recovery.

BB: Okay, a snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life that brings you real joy.

IK: Ordinary moment, is my 4-year-old daughter, I'm home after being somewhere, and she just jumps into a massive sprint, she comes and say hello and hugs me around my legs. That always brings me joy.

BB: Yeah. Last one. What's one thing that you're deeply grateful for right now?

IK: I think I'm deeply grateful for being surrounded by people, who sort of practice love with me, and who show their love as I seek to show my love to them, and so people... I believe people choose to love, and I'm sort of deeply grateful that people have chosen to love me.

BB: Well, your work is life-affirming and life-changing. Professor Ibram Kendi, How to Be an Antiracist. We just have a couple of short weeks to wait for Antiracist Baby, the board book, to come out. I'll make sure that we profile that on all of our channels, and we'll put it up on brenebrown.com. I think danger is real, to go back to your quote, I haven't seen that movie, but that quote's amazing. "Danger is real, but fear is a choice," and I am grateful for you for choosing courage. Thank you for making us braver.

IK: Well, thank you, and of course thank you for all your work, and glad we had a chance to sit down and talk about this.

BB: Me too, thank you.

(music)

Again, I want to thank Ibram Kendi for joining us on Unlocking Us. I'm committed to having him back on the program, if he'll join us, to talk even more, about antiracism and everything he has to teach us. If you want to follow Dr. Kendi, on Twitter, he's Dr. Ibram, @-D-R-I-B-R-A-M, Instagram, @-I-B-R-A-M-X-K. You can also go to our show page, on brenebrown.com, and you'll see all of his books, links to all of his books, and how to find him on social media, his website, and learn more about the work he does. I always sign these podcasts, I sign off on these podcasts by saying, "Stay awkward, brave and kind," and I would add to this one, in addition to awkward, brave and kind, I know we have to make choices, we have to use our voice in service, and for me, that rarely means giving voice to the voiceless, I think the voiceless have voices, and they've been screaming, for centuries. I think our work is to show up, be brave, give ears to the earless, and that's not easy, but right isn't easy, very often. Take good care of yourselves.

© 2020 Brené Brown Education and Research Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Brown, B. (Host). (2020, June 3). Brené with Ibram X. Kendi on How to Be an Antiracist. [Audio podcast episode]. In Unlocking Us with Brené Brown. Cadence13. https://brenebrown.com/podcast/brene-with-ibram-x-kendi-on-how-to-be-an-antiracist/

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Brené with Ibram X. Kendi on How to Be an Antiracist

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Ibram X. Kendi and I talk about racial disparities, policy, and equality, but we really focus on How to Be an Antiracist, Kendi's groundbreaking approach to understanding uprooting racism and inequality in our society and in ourselves.

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Scenes on Radio Podcast:  Seeing White: An Exploration of Whiteness

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Scenes on Radio Podcast:  Seeing White: An Exploration of Whiteness

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Just what is going on with white people? Police shootings of unarmed African Americans. Acts of domestic terrorism by white supremacists. The renewed embrace of raw, undisguised white-identity politics. Unending racial inequity in schools, housing, criminal justice, and hiring. Some of this feels new, but in truth it's an old story.

Why? Where did the notion of "whiteness" come from? What does it mean? What is whiteness for?

Scene on Radio host and producer John Biewen took a deep dive into these questions, along with an array of leading scholars and regular guest Dr. Chenjerai Kumanyika, in this fourteen-part documentary series, released between February and August 2017. The series editor is Loretta Williams.

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Just what is going on with white people? Police shootings of unarmed African Americans. Acts of domestic terrorism by white supremacists. The renewed embrace of raw, undisguised white-identity politics. Unending racial inequity in schools, housing, criminal justice, and hiring. Some of this feels ne

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Jennifer Eberhardt and Razia Iqbal on the Psychology of Racial Bias - Intelligence Squared

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For this week's episode of the Intelligence Squared podcast we were joined by Jennifer Eberhardt, Social Psychologist at Stanford University and author of Biased: Uncovering the Hidden Prejudice That Shapes What We See, Think, and Do. In a wide-ranging interview by the BBC's Razia Iqbal, she explored the science behind the hidden prejudices that shape racial inequality around the world.

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RHUDAY-PERKOVICH_Confessions of a Black Geek

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Lupita Nyong'o Talks About Her Children's Book "Sulwe"

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In our third stop of the Fall tour, Nikole Hannah-Jones, the architect behind The 1619 Project, and Ibram Kendi, author of "How To Be an Antiracist", join Chris Hayes to examine the 400 year legacy of slavery in America.

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Dr. DiAngelo is Affiliate Associate Professor of Education at the University of Washington. Her area of research is in Whiteness Studies and Critical Discourse Analysis. She is a two-time winner of the Student’s Choice Award for Educator of the Year at the University of Washington’s School of Social…

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is a writer, speaker and internet yeller. She is the author of the #1 New York Times bestseller and most recently, . Her work on race has been featured in The Guardian, The New York Times and The Washington Post, among many other publications. She was named to the 2021 TIME 100 Next list and has twice been named to the Root 100. She received the 2018 Feminist Humanist Award and the 2020 Harvard Humanist of the Year Award from the American Humanist Association. She lives in Seattle, Washington.

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Ijeoma Oluo | Writer, Speaker, Internet Yeller

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is a writer, speaker and internet yeller. She is the author of the #1 New York Times bestseller and most recently, . Her work on race has been featured in The Guardian, The New York Times and The Washington Post, among many other publications.

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Dr. Bettina Love is the William F. Russell Professor at Teachers College, Columbia University and the bestselling author of Punished for Dreaming

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Spanning more than 400 years, this classic bottom-up history examines the legacy of Indigenous peoples' resistance, resilience, and steadfast fight against imperialism.

Going beyond the story of America as a country "discovered" by a few brave men in the "New World," Indigenous human rights advocate Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz reveals the roles that settler colonialism and policies of American Indian genocide played in forming our national identity.

The original academic text is fully adapted by renowned curriculum experts Debbie Reese and Jean Mendoza, for middle-grade and young adult readers to include discussion topics, archival images, original maps, recommendations for further reading, and other materials to encourage students, teachers, and general readers to think critically about their own place in history.

Price: $18.95
Format: Paperback

Not Yet Published
Will Ship On: July 2019

Our history books paint tells the true history of the United States. Her 1977 book US history in a certain light. Author Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz's work The Great Sioux Nation was the fundamental document at the First United Nations Conference on Indians in the Americas, which was held at the United Nations' headquarters in Geneva. Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz has also written on the 1960s social movements, feminism, Latin America, and international human rights law.

About Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz

Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz is a historian, author, memoirist, and speaker who researches Western Hemisphere history and international human rights.

Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz grew up in rural Oklahoma, the daughter of a tenant farmer and part-Indian mother. She has been active in the international indigenous movement for more than four decades, and she is known for her lifelong commitment to national and international social justice issues. After receiving her Ph.D. in history at the University of California at Los Angeles, she taught in the newly established Native American Studies Program at California State University, Hayward, and helped found the Departments of Ethnic Studies and Women's Studies.

Contact

Thank you for your interest. We look forward to hearing from you soon.

Service Area
San Francisco, CA, & Nationwide

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Spanning more than 400 years, this classic bottom-up history examines the legacy of Indigenous peoples' resistance, resilience, and steadfast fight against imperialism. Going beyond the story of America as a country "discovered" by a few brave men in the "New World," Indigenous human rights advocate Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz reveals the roles that settler colonialism and policies of American Indian genocide played in forming our national identity.

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Understanding how school discipline policies can contribute to the school-to-prison pipeline is essential for educators and families. Harsh punishments, automatic out-of-class time and police involvement for discipline can push young people out of classrooms and into the criminal legal system. But educators, parents and caregivers can help to change this harmful system by advocating for and implementing practices that prioritize mental health and well-being.

We offer this new resource page that highlights LFJ articles and content to open dialogue, shift practices and foster change to benefit all young people.

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Learning for Justice | Education Resources

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Learning for Justice provides free resources to educators-teachers, administrators, counselors and other practitioners-who work with children from kindergarten through high school. Educators use our materials to supplement the curriculum, to inform their practices, and to create civil and inclusive school communities where children are respected, valued and welcome participants.

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An alliance of trainers, organizers, and institutional leaders devoted to the work of creating racially equitable organizations and systems.

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Welcome to Raising Race Conscious Children, a resource to support adults who are trying to talk about race with young children. The goals of these conversations are to dismantle the color-blind framework and prepare young people to work toward racial justice. If we commit to collectively trying to talk about race with young children, we can lean on one another for support as we, together, envision a world where we actively challenge racism each and every day. Many of the blog's posts are geared toward White people but a community of guest bloggers represent diverse backgrounds and the strategies discussed may be helpful for all.
It starts one conversation at a time.
Quick Links

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Raising Race Conscious Children | A Resource for Talking About Race & Diversity With Young Children

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To support parents who are trying to talk about race and diversity with young children- with the goal of preparing young people to work toward racial justice.

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All New York City Children Deserve Culturally Response Education!

As parents, we want our children to graduate from high school prepared for college and careers and lives of learning and leadership. While NYC schools are some of the most culturally and linguistically diverse in the nation, with 180 languages spoken, enormous achievement gaps remain. Many destructive forces contribute to these unacceptable outcomes, including the ways that systemic racism, overt and implicit bias play out inside schools. In order to help students achieve their goals, improve outcomes for all students and create oases from racism, sexism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, homophobia and other biases, the NYC school system needs Culturally Responsive Education.

Culturally Responsive Education (CRE) is a method of rigorous, student-centered education. CEJ calls on the NYC Department of Education to implement CRE in the following ways:

1. 1. Work to ensure school and district staff represent the diversity of the NYC Schools population; promote district-wide skills in culturally responsive education and anti-discriminatory practices

2. Provide classes, curricula, projects and resources designed to celebrate the rich diversity of NYC Schools students

3. Cultivate a positive, culturally responsive culture in schools that respects and honors all youth regardless of race, culture, and abilities

4. Champion increased parent engagement efforts that are culturally responsive and promote collaborative efforts to help students grow

Culturally Responsive Education Platform

Culturally Responsive Education Fact Sheet

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As parents, we want our children to graduate from high school prepared for college and careers and lives of learning and leadership. While NYC schools are some of the most culturally and linguistically diverse in the nation, with 180 languages spoken, enormous achievement gaps remain.

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A 501(c)(3) nonprofit, WNDB aims to create a world where every reader can find themselves in the pages of a book. To reach this goal, we've created programs to mentor diverse writers and illustrators, support diverse publishing professionals, and provide books to classrooms nationwide.

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Shelly Tochluk and Christine Saxman have been investigating White supremacist organizations and their tactics for recruiting White youth. Join us for a discussion about the importance of having explicit conversations about race and what teachers and parents can do to support White students.

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Shelly Tochluk and Christine Saxman have been investigating White supremacist organizations and their tactics for recruiting White youth. Join us for a discussion about the importance of having explicit conversations about race and what teachers and parents can do to support White students.

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The Windows and Mirrors of Your Child's Bookshelf | Grace Lin | TEDxNatick

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It's Time to Shatter the Silence About Race

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It's Time to Shatter the Silence About Race

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I am one of few African-American educators in a predominantly white school district.

After I reported witnessing dozens of white students in a group using the N-word on school property, an administrator said to me, "I'm sure that was awful for you. Why don't you speak with the students and tell them how that made you feel?" I was stunned.

Essentially, I was told that this incident was offensive only to me and that it was my responsibility alone to confront their behavior. The onus to address racism rests upon the shoulders of all educators in my district, not simply the African-American teacher.

I rejected his offer and instead co-founded the Race Matters Committee (RMC) - named after Cornel West's Race Matters, which passionately and urgently addresses racial tensions - in our district.

In the United States, I envision RMC to be a place where committed educators, from all grade levels and content areas, meet to focus specifically on issues related to race and racism.

Educators will join the RMC to have courageous conversations, to seek out and provide quality professional development for ourselves and our colleagues, to develop anti-racist and anti-bias curricula and, most importantly, to implement racial justice work in our classrooms of mostly white students.
Related: How teachers should talk to students about Trump's racism
Recent events have resulted in an awakening for many educators that they simply must do more to combat racism - and it is critical that this work happens in predominantly white spaces. If we continue to normalize discussions of racism and bias, and lean into, rather than away from, our discomfort, the silence will eventually become uncomfortable. Practices that dismantle institutional racism will become the rule rather than the exception.

The onus to address racism rests upon the shoulders of all educators in my district, not simply the African-American teacher.

From the spate of mosque fires to the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, 2017 was marked by a string of violent events across the United States that put a spotlight on issues of race and racism.

Whether or not they're invited, these issues enter our schools and our classrooms -and teachers have a responsibility to address them.

Although some educators are eager to facilitate these critical conversations, many others are skeptical, resistant or indifferent. Particularly in predominantly white K-12 schools, teachers often take a colorblind approach when teaching historical and current events, silencing conversations about race and racism. However, a racial justice approach in schools and curricula can educate students in profound ways that help them grow as informed, active participants in a democratic society.

Research shows that by preschool age, children recognize and understand that whiteness is more valued in U.S. society. Therefore, to deconstruct and disrupt powerful and harmful narratives about race, it is essential that schools cultivate anti-racism curricula and prioritize anti-bias education from the beginning. This may be challenging, especially in predominantly white schools.
Related: History of civil rights movement gets short shrift in Mississippi classrooms
A major roadblock to racial justice work in schools is discomfort. In a 2017 survey conducted by the Education Week Research Center, 22 percent of educators said they find it "somewhat" or "very" difficult to discuss issues of race and ethnicity in the classroom. Moreover, about 82 percent of elementary and secondary teachers in the United States are white. These data suggest that in many classrooms around the country, conversations about race simply aren't happening. When discomfort begets silence, students don't acquire the tools necessary to develop racial literacy skills.

Many white educators believe that racial justice work isn't important for white children. They view discussions about race as polarizing and potentially harmful to children who may experience feelings of shame or guilt. This mindset becomes a rationale for shielding students from these challenging conversations.

Finally, most schools do not provide the anti-racist and anti-bias professional development that educators need to break through the boundaries of racial justice work. Teachers need sufficient training in this specific area of education to feel confident and prepared when delivering these lessons.
A version of this article originally appeared in the January/February 2018 issue of Sonja Cherry-Paul, a teacher for 20 years, is an author and a consultant. She is currently working on her doctorate in curriculum and teaching at Teachers College, Columbia University. Literacy Today, the member magazine of the International Literacy Association. It is reprinted here with permission.
Educators looking to disrupt silences in their own schools can start with these five steps:

1. Build a safe space: Work with other concerned educators to create a judgment-free zone where you can learn together, give voice to the challenges of racial justice work, and discuss ways to overcome those challenges.

2. Establish a unified vision: Craft a mission statement that highlights your committee's purpose. Describe who you are and what you hope to achieve.

3. Create an action plan: This working document increases efficiency and accountability among changemakers. Goals become concrete when documented and revisited often.

4. Identify goals: Identify short- and long-term goals to address the specific needs of your school district. Possible focus areas include professional development, curriculum, school structures and hiring practices.

5. Partner with parents: The staying power of any new initiative in a school district relies on the support of parents and the community. If administrators know that parents care about race-related issues, it behooves them to prioritize and support your efforts.

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TEACHER VOICE: It's time to shatter the silence about race

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I am one of few African-American educators in a predominantly white school district. After I reported witnessing dozens of white students in a group using the N-word on school property, an administrator said to me, "I'm sure that was awful for you. Why don't you speak with the students and tell them how that made you feel?"

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Interview with Rudine Sims Bishop on Mirrors and Windows

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Interview with Rudine Sims Bishop on Mirrors and Windows

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A video interview with Rudine Sims Bishop

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Watch the interview below to learn more about Rudine Sims Bishop, or read a short biography about her. You can also view the interview transcript or see a selected list of her books.

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The Subscribed Classroom: Using Podcasts to Teach About Social Justice

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The Subscribed Classroom: Using Podcasts to Teach About Social Justice

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There's a common phrase in radio production: "Radio has the best pictures."

And it's true. The scenes we imagine for ourselves-those sketched by the voices of hosts and reporters we trust the most-rarely disappoint.

That adage may explain one reason why podcasts have become so popular in the last decade. But podcasts are more than just radio shows. Podcasters aren't bound by a 30-minute episode frame, a newspaper editor's column inches or a book publisher's idea of what will sell. The expandable limits of the medium mean that episodes, series and entire shows can offer deep dives into complicated subjects. They can take the time they need to tell stories that haven't been told before. They can include the most recent news, the most relevant sources. And they can, quite literally, bring new voices into conversation with one another.

Educators are getting students in on this conversation as well, turning to podcasts as an additional resource for tackling complex social justice topics.

Lessons on Inequality

In Anthony Maida's high school government classes, for example, students learn about school integration by listening to " The Problem We All Live With," a 2015 series of episodes on the podcast This American Life.

The series provides a clear overview of a complex problem-something students might have trouble finding elsewhere. New York Times journalist Nikole Hannah-Jones, who hosts the series, has spent years reporting and writing on school segregation.

Maida focuses on segregation and educational inequity because it's a problem many of his students do not readily see. The student body at his high school, in a suburb outside of Philadelphia, is about 70 percent white.

"I teach and live in a bubble here, and these kids have no exposure to anyone who is unlike them," he says. "And they, frankly, leave here believing that every high school education is just like theirs, and it's not."

He points to disparities in funding, noting that his school district spends about $22,000 per student, compared to less than $10,000 that the School District of Philadelphia spends per student.

"So, we're asking those types of questions, like: 'Why is your high school education worth twice [what] a kid in Philadelphia's high school education is worth?'"

"The Problem We All Live With" impressed Maida with its content and its potential for engaging students. "I'm a big believer that any time I'm not standing in front of a classroom talking is better teaching," he says. "If they're listening to a podcast, it focuses them a little bit, but the biggest benefit is they're hearing it from someone who's not me."

He teaches the podcast like any other text, which includes scaffolding student learning. Before they listen, students learn about domestic policy, reading and discussing Jonathon Kozol's Savage Inequalities: Children in America's Schools. As they listen, they respond and make connections to the episodes and accompanying books using their district-issued Google Chromebooks.

On This American Life 's website, the page for "The Problem We All Live With" features the famous Normal Rockwell illustration of Ruby Bridges. It's an image of segregation that aligns with many people's ideas about the practice: that it was an injustice firmly located in a distant past, one long before Maida's students-or even their parents-were born.

But segregation in U.S. schools is a 21st-century problem. And that's one clear benefit of reporting-based podcasts like "The Problem We All Live With." Students can listen to Hannah-Jones supplement her own reporting with recordings of her sources: other students, educators, even former U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan.

Hearing their voices drives home an idea that students may already know but not always consider: that those affected by segregation-and those who have the power to shape policy to end it-aren't frozen in paintings or history books. They're living, breathing people.

"Seeing White" in the Classroom

The genre may be particularly well suited to introducing or explaining complex policy, but educators say that reporting isn't the only thing podcasts do well. Since they're designed to be consumed independently, podcasts also offer educators a way to provide students with valuable context or deep dives into topics related to-but not an explicit part of-course content.

Stephanie Flores-Koulish, associate professor and director of the Curriculum and Instruction for Social Justice graduate program at Loyola University Maryland, uses the Scene on Radio podcast series " Seeing White " just this way in her graduate education courses.

"The idea of white privilege is a big element to understanding," she says. "And my teachers aren't all white, but they tend to predominately be white-much like the teaching force."

When John Biewen, a radio journalist and audio director at the Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University, began working on "Seeing White," he wanted to challenge audiences to rethink how they view whiteness. By the end of the series, listeners come away with a deeper understanding of how the concept of whiteness shapes oppressive American structures.

Flores-Koulish uses the podcast primarily to supplement course content, to give students an opportunity to consider how issues around identity, power and intersectionality might affect their futures as educators.

"I found that it was such an engaging, in-depth way to cover the topics that I wanted them to understand," she said. "And they could do it outside of class."

Anastasia Shown, a lecturer at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Social Policy & Practice, conducts K-12 outreach and training. She teaches with "Seeing White," as well. Like Maida, she treats the podcast as a course text. But she also builds on materials produced especially for students.

When the podcast first launched, Biewen didn't expect he'd have an audience of educators asking for transcripts so they could use the content in their classrooms. But when the requests came in, he obliged and went a step further, creating a bibliography and study guide for listeners.

"I find specific episodes that sit within my syllabus, and I use the content in the online study guide, which is great," Shown says. "I tell the students, 'Go to the study guide; answer those questions.' We'll get in discussion groups, or sometimes they have to write a reflection paper after listening to one of the episodes."

That's exactly what Biewen had in mind when he produced the resources. "The spirit of something like 'Seeing White' is so tied up with the realization that most of us are not ... getting a very clear picture of who we actually are in the classroom," he says. "So, when you hear that teachers today are seeing this as an opportunity to do something different ... it's really, really gratifying."

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The Subscribed Classroom: Using Podcasts to Teach About Social Justice

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There's a common phrase in radio production: "Radio has the best pictures." And it's true. The scenes we imagine for ourselves-those sketched by the voices of hosts and reporters we trust the most-rarely disappoint. That adage may explain one reason why podcasts have become so popular in the last decade.

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A few years ago, commentator Grace Lin joined the Diversity Committee of her child's preschool in western Massachusetts . When one of the members asked dubiously whether race really needed to be addressed with young children, Lin knew the answer instantly.
When I was a child, the way adults dealt with race in my community was by not talking about it.

I remember in fifth grade, after I'd answered a question correctly, a boy burst in saying, "She just knows that because she's Chin-," only to be cut off by our teacher.

She shook her head at him, then continued on with the lesson as if nothing had happened. But the message was clear. We were to never mention my race.

I realize now that silencing my classmate was my teacher's way of trying to create racially blind kids, kids who "don't see color." But as the only Asian in a classroom of white faces, I did not feel colorless. I felt as if I had this shameful secret that everyone knew, but didn't talk about. The imposed silence just made me feel something was wrong with me.

And, attempting to teach color-blindness apparently didn't help at least one of my fellow students, either. Thanks to social media, I recently found myself reading an article from my hometown newspaper. A refugee resettlement center's budget had been cut, making it likely no new refugees would be coming to town. From the comments which followed, it was clear many people were pleased by this.

One comment, however, upset me more than the others. The name of the person who wrote it was familiar; He was one of my fifth grade classmates.

That discovery was one reason I decided to become chair of that Diversity Committee. I convinced the committee to develop at our school something we're calling the Community Book Stop -- a small library that contains books featuring characters of color.

Inside each book we've taped discussion suggestion sheets to help foster conversation between parents and their kids. We've also included blank paper so parents can share their thoughts to help the next reader.

It's a simple idea, but one I hope will bring the topic of race into the home and beyond. And while I know that seems like a small action considering what's needed in the world, it's from seeds that everything begins. If we're lucky, this project will nurture a culture in which we can acknowledge our differences, and talk about our problems. Maybe, by doing so, we'll even begin to fix them.
Grace Lin is the author and illustrator of more than a dozen children's books, including the National Book Award finalist, "When the Sea Turned to Silver." She lives in Florence, Massachusetts.

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A few years ago, commentator Grace Lin joined the Diversity Committee of her child's preschool in western Massachusetts . When one of the members asked dubiously whether race really needed to be addressed with young children, Lin knew the answer instantly.

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Writing Children's Books Helped Grace Lin Embrace Being Asian American

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Writing Children's Books Helped Grace Lin Embrace Being Asian American

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In Grace Lin's books, Asian and Asian-American children go on adventures big and small, encountering everything from dim sum to enchanted kingdoms. Since she began writing and illustrating for children in 1999, Lin has published more than 20 books, all featuring characters of color, most of whom share her Chinese heritage. Her latest novel, "When the Sea Turns to Silver," published Tuesday.

But Lin, whose parents are from Taiwan and only more recently began identifying as Taiwanese rather than Chinese, didn't always embrace her Asian roots, she said. In the small town in upstate New York where she grew up, she and her family were some of the only Asians in the area. The isolation often left her lonely and out of place, she told NBC News. She remembers wanting to be Dorothy in her school's production of "The Wizard of Oz." When she shared this hope with a friend, the friend told her she couldn't be Dorothy - because Dorothy wasn't Chinese.

"I decided pretty early that I was just going to pretend that I wasn't Asian," Lin said.
RELATED: South Asian Author Aditi Khorana Lives Her Parallel Life
Meanwhile, her mother tried everything to interest her in the family's culture - teaching her Chinese, buying her Chinese clothes - but none of it worked, Lin said.

"She realized that if I was ever going to learn anything about our heritage, she would have to sneak it in," Lin said. "She saw that I liked books, so she bought all these Chinese fairy tale books. She didn't give them to me because she knew that if she did, I would say, 'Aw, you just want me to read them because they're Chinese. Forget it.' She just left them on the shelf for me to find, so I did find them, and I ended up reading every single one of them. But I wasn't really impressed with them at the time because they'd been translated really plainly, and the illustrations were really crude."

Only later, when she traveled as an adult to China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong and saw landmarks of the world where those myths took place - like a dragon statue or a palace befitting an evil magistrate - did the stories begin to come alive for her, she said. At the same time, her books began to give her a chance to talk to her parents about Chinese culture and to learn more about their lives.

"When I started writing books, a really wonderful side-effect was that I had all these questions," Lin said. "Like, I never knew why my parents immigrated to the United States. And it was only when I started making the books that I started asking those questions of my parents and hearing stories from their lives in Taiwan when they were children. All these things that we never talked about before. Now they'll tell me stories because they're like, 'Oh, you could use this.'"

Her parents' stories helped to form Lin's first novels, the mostly-autobiographical "The Year of the Dog" and "The Year of the Rat." Since writing those books, Lin's work has taken a different turn, away from her personal experience, away from the United States, and even away from the present.

"When the Sea Turns to Silver" is the third in a fantasy series that takes place in an ancient, fictional China, where traditional myths and folktales meet stories of Lin's own invention. The book follows a shy girl named Pinmei, who leaves her small village at the top of a mountain in search of her grandmother, a trip that takes her past wonders like embroidered portals and mussels that transform into birds, all the way to a castle at the bottom of the sea.
RELATED: Simon & Schuster Announces Muslim Children's Book Imprint
Lin was inspired to try writing fantasy stories for the first time while spending time in the hospital with her first husband, who died of cancer in 2007.

"One of the things we would do there is I would write something and I would read it to him," she said. "And I wanted to write a new book, and he said, 'Well, why don't you write a fantasy? Because if you write a fantasy and read it to me, I can pretend I'm some place else other than here in this hospital.' I think he thought I was gonna write something like Terry Brooks or 'The Hobbit'."

But instead, she thought back to the Chinese fairy tales of her childhood. In 2010, the first book in the series, "Where the Mountain Meets the Moon," won a Newberry Honor.

Lin also sits on the advisory committee for We Need Diverse Books, a campaign that promotes diversity in children's literature. She sees the need for books like hers on her many school visits, where she meets parents and children facing similar cultural struggles that she and her mom shared when she was young.

"I'll go to these events and parents will ask me, 'Do you have any advice for my child who was born here but we're Asian?'" Lin said. "And I say, 'Well I have advice for both of you... Your child will never be Asian. And I say to the kid, and you will never be American. You will always be Asian-American, no matter what."

That hyphen in Asian-American can feel like a minus sign, she said, as if each half of the compound were taking away from the other. "But really it's not a minus sign, it's a bridge, and it's something that ties us together, and it only makes it stronger. So that's what I try to tell them. And that's how I feel now too about my own identity."

She also sees this issue through the eyes of a parent, looking for books to read with her four-year-old daughter. For a while, she tried a system wherein she would read three picture books per night, and if one of those featured a white character, at least one of the others would feature a person of color or a person with disabilities.

"After like, two weeks, it was so hard to do that I would get tired," Lin said. "I would be like, okay, we're reading all animals tonight."

At the same time, having a child has given her a new perspective on the impact books can have. "Before I had my own child, parents would say to me, 'My son loves this book so much he brings it to bed,' and I'd be like, 'That's so great,'" she said. "I really liked it, but I never realized what a big deal that was until I had my own child. The first time my daughter woke us up in the morning with a book, saying 'Read this one, read this one,' it was a big deal. And how amazing it is to be the creator of that book that a child rushes in to wake their parents up to read."
Follow NBC Asian America on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Tumblr. Correction: An earlier version of this story stated that "When the Sea Turns to Silver" was released on Oct. 4. It was released on Oct. 3.

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Writing Children's Books Helped Grace Lin Embrace Being Asian American

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In Grace Lin's books, Asian and Asian-American children go on adventures big and small, encountering everything from dim sum to enchanted kingdoms. Since she began writing and illustrating for children in 1999, Lin has published more than 20 books, all featuring characters of color, most of whom share her Chinese heritage.

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Understanding The Diversity of Children's Language and Literature_ (1)

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What does "white anti-racist" mean? How can guilt get in the way? And what's all this talk about being "colorblind"? Learning for Justice, then Teaching Tolerance, asked community activists to share their thoughts on these questions, and others. Their answers shine light on the concepts of comfort, power, privilege and identity.

Perspective:

This Q & A delves into the "finer lines" of white anti-racism and should be used with older students and adults.

The Participants:

Diane Flinn, a white woman and managing partner of Diversity Matters.

Georgette Norman, an African American woman and director of the Rosa Parks Library and Museum

Sejal Patel, a South Asian American woman and community organizer in South Asian immigrant communities

Yvette Robles, a Chicana and Community Relations Manager in Los Angeles

What does "white anti-racist" mean to you?

Diane: I associate this terminology with action and behavior more than an identity or subject position. Anti-racist, for me, is more indicative of a process of coming to a healthy and functioning sense of a white racial identity.

One of the functions and privileges of racism is that white people don't, as a whole, carry race as an identity -- you get to be individual, you get to be "yourself," you get to be the norm, you get to be whole and not partial or hyphenated. You do not have to make "adjustments" or "modifications" to know or name yourself.

I also think my discomfort [with the term anti-racist] is fueled by it being based on what I am not. It is the proverbial "I'm not a racist" disclaimer used by whites to separate themselves from the realities of racism and race-based privilege.

What are common mistakes white activists make when trying to be allies to people of color?

Yvette: Not acknowledging that they have power and privilege by the mere fact that they are white. That is not to say that other parts of their identity can't lead them to feel powerless, for example, being white and gay, or being white and working class. Another mistake I see is when white activists try to emulate a different culture by changing how they act, their speech or style of dress. It's one thing to appreciate someone else's culture; it's quite another to adopt it.

Georgette: The most common mistakes white activists make are 1) setting an agenda with the illusion of inclusion, and 2) having to have a franchise on comfort. God forbid a person of color says or does anything to make white activists feel uncomfortable. That means there can be no discussion of race and no challenge to their privilege, which means no challenge to their power.

Sejal: White anti-racists make a mistake when they shut out the poor and uneducated and keep in those "in the know" to decide what's good for people of color. No movement can work where there is divisiveness.

Also, if people of color want to have their own space and place in certain aspects of society -- say for a weekend or a month -- they shouldn't have to feel like they are being exclusive for doing this. White activists need to understand that society is their space and place every single day, and they shouldn't feel threatened or left out.

When attempting to be allies to people of color, is there a point when white people "get it" (and what does "getting it" mean)?

Sejal: "Getting it" is the biggest point, I feel. Getting it means many things: the ability for white activists to understand that they have a space and place of privilege. It really is up to white people to give up their privilege and be okay with that. Giving it up will make white people truly sensitive to the issues of racism, classism, sexism and homophobia.

White activists need to understand that they can't completely understand or "get" the experience of a person of color. They should trust that their allies, people of color, are not being too sensitive or complaining. Everyone, especially U.S. citizens, has some sort of privilege in their lives, and, as a person of color, I make sure that people have space to express themselves in a way they feel is right. I need to trust that my white allies will do the same for me when I need it.

Diane: I believe that white allies can "get it" if we define "getting it" as becoming attuned to the subtle effects of racial bias in everyday interactions and environments. We can "get it" if we recognize the systemic presence of racism and how race-based oppression is allowed to continue. If we identify and own racial privilege and, as white people, have our own experiences of exclusion so we can authentically empathize, then we are "getting it." We "get it" when we value equity, human rights and social justice.

How would you describe the stages of becoming a white anti-racist/ally?

Sejal: 1) Realize the meanings behind privilege, racism and whiteness. 2) Look within before you look outward. How do you relate to the definitions? Pinpoint the ways in which you experience privilege as a white person. 3) Look outward, find out the historical, global and social patterns of the effects of racism and other forms of oppression. 4) Act. Realize that you want to do something about this system, and come at it with a sensitivity and understanding that you come from a privileged background whether you like it or not.

How does guilt affect white anti-racism?

Diane: Guilt allows white people to maintain the status quo. Guilt creates paralysis. Guilt transfers the responsibility to people of color. Guilt continues the aspect of racism wherein white people put people of color in a situation of taking care of us.

By saying, "I feel so guilty, so bad," it puts the other person in a position of comforting. The other person is then silenced, must reposition or restate their truth. Or worse -- maintain their truth and risk being viewed as mean, insensitive and angry.

Guilt is where most white people get stuck. Guilt is the ultimate obstacle in the personal journey to being a white ally.

How can white privilege get in the way?

Georgette: Privilege and power perpetuate and maintain the hierarchy in our society. It defines 'being' by virtue of skin color. It also defines the kind of relationship you have or are allowed to have and with whom. While many white activists won't admit it, a black person would only have to call them on any issue, and they will promptly remind you of your place and your guest status at the table.

The question, then, becomes how does one get knowledge and access to that power? How does one rise above powerlessness and dependency? Self-determination is one component, but equally important is for white people to yield access to power.

Diane: It is challenging to recognize how my way of doing things and the rules of conduct that I understand are informed by privilege.

Privilege, by its very nature, will "get in the way" as white people move toward and work as allies.

Unfortunately, the more a white person works through his or her whiteness and toward being an ally, the more difficult it becomes to self-identify privilege. You usually can't see it when you are in it; in other words, do fish know they're wet?

What do you think of the concept of being "colorblind"?

Yvette: I hate it. While I think I get the "intention" behind the comment, the reality, when applied, is that a whole segment of the community -- people of color -- are disregarded. When I hear that we should strive for a colorblind society, I hear that we should all adopt to one norm, which may be the most familiar or comfortable for American culture. American culture in the U.S., in my opinion, translates directly to white mainstream culture.

There is no room for diversity in that statement. As a person of color, a Latina, a woman, it means that I need to let go of all that makes me who I am in order to blend into what is acceptable. A colorblind society reminds me of the melting pot theory. I would rather be a part of a "tossed salad," where all different types of people can coexist and live together while maintaining their own personal identities.

Diane: To be "colorblind" implies the invisibility of race, something we all know to not be invisible. My experience of the world is informed by being white; other people experience and interact with me informed by my whiteness so, for me, colorblindness feels like an erasure. To be colorblind is to not see my family, where we come from, our history, and our ways of being. "Colorblind" avoids difference rather than recognizing and valuing it. I do not see how a white activist can be an ally from a position of colorblindness. I understand that many people use this term to challenge racial stereotyping, to not see people "as" their color and the associated racial stereotypes, but it functions as assimilation. If we become "colorblind," than to which worlds and ways of being are we being blinded? What are we not "seeing?" And in which "hue" will we be operating?

Georgette: I personally find it offensive. The largest organ I have is skin, which happens to be brown and rather than accept it, some who call themselves allies want to be blind to it.

Sejal: Of course we have differences and its okay. Let's be realistic -- as much as it would be nice to have a colorblind society, that's not the way it is given our historical landscape. That's not the way we are socialized to think.

Discussion Questions

Diane says: "Anti-racist, for me, is more indicative of a process of coming to a healthy and functioning sense of a white racial identity." Why is the word "functioning" important?

Sejal says: "If people of color want to have their own space and place in certain aspects of society -- say for a weekend or a month -- they shouldn't have to feel like they are being exclusive for doing this." Why might people of color sometimes want their "own" spaces? Are there ever instances when white people should do anti-racist work in isolation? Why?

Guilt and white privilege, these activists say, can sometimes get in the way of white people being effective allies in the struggle against racism. What qualities or actions can help white people be effective allies?

The activists all reject the idea of "colorblindness." Many people contribute the "goal" of colorblindness to a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." Was Dr. King advocating that people ignore color? Ignore racism? Why?

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What does "white anti-racist" mean? How can guilt get in the way? And what's all this talk about being "colorblind"? Learning for Justice, then Teaching Tolerance, asked community activists to share their thoughts on these questions, and others. Their answers shine light on the concepts of comfort, power, privilege and identity.

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Diverse Books

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Include diverse cultural experiences in your instruction as reflected in quality fiction and nonfiction books.

Identify exceptional multicultural books for all content areas

Bring culture and race to the forefront of literary conversations with authentic, primary source instructional materials

You can always search for a specific nationality, culture, religion, or subject using the main search box.

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TeachingBooks | Author & Book Resources to Support Reading Education

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Include diverse cultural experiences in your instruction as reflected in quality fiction and nonfiction books. Identify exceptional multicultural books for all content areas Bring culture and race to the forefront of literary conversations with authentic, primary source instructional materials You can always search for a specific nationality, culture, religion, or subject using the main search box.

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Sesame Street: Lupita Nyong'o Loves Her Skin

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Shelly Tochluk and Christine Saxman have been investigating White supremacist organizations and their tactics for recruiting White youth. Join us for a discussion about the importance of having explicit conversations about race and what teachers and parents can do to support White students.

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Shelly Tochluk and Christine Saxman have been investigating White supremacist organizations and their tactics for recruiting White youth. Join us for a discussion about the importance of having explicit conversations about race and what teachers and parents can do to support White students.

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A Look at Race Relations through a Child's Eyes

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"Because I’m Latino, I can’t have money?" Kids on Race

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A majority of parents rarely, if ever, discuss race/ethnicity, gender, class or other categories of social identity with their kids, according to a new, nationally representative survey of more than 6,000 parents conducted by Sesame Workshop and NORC at the University of Chicago. The researchers behind Sesame Street say the fact that so many families aren't talking about these issues is a problem because children are hard-wired to notice differences at a young age - and they're asking questions.

" 'Why is this person darker than me?' 'Why is this person wearing that hat on their head?' " These are just some of the social identity questions parents might hear, says Tanya Haider, executive vice president for strategy, research and ventures at Sesame Workshop. "We sometimes are scared to talk about these things. If the adults stiffen up and say, 'Oh, you shouldn't say that loudly,' that's sending [children] a cue that there's something wrong."

And there's nothing wrong, Haider says, with a child's natural curiosity. What's risky is when kids are left alone to make sense of the differences they see, with little more than stereotypes, television and guesswork to guide them.

For the past year, NPR and Sesame Workshop have collaborated on a podcast for parents - part of NPR's Life Kit project. Together, they've covered all sorts of subjects, from how to raise kind kids and navigate divorce to how to talk with children about death. Earlier this year, NPR and Sesame Workshop devoted an entire episode to the importance of talking about race and other social categories with kids and provided parents with some helpful strategies.

These new survey results raise an important question: Why are so many parents not talking about these big social categories with their kids?

The answer's complicated.

The vast majority of parents surveyed say they do feel comfortable talking about social identity. Many just don't do it.

That doesn't surprise Beverly Daniel Tatum, a psychologist and author of the classic, Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together In The Cafeteria. "My guess is, some parents - certain majority parents - might think, 'What's to talk about?' You know? Maybe there's this sense of, it doesn't really need to be talked about."

And the survey data back that guess. Parents of color are much more likely than white parents to report that race/ethnicity not only shapes their child's identity but also, according to the report, "Black (64%), Asian (64% ), and Hispanic (51%) parents are more likely than White parents (41%) to say that race and ethnicity shape how other people treat their child a lot or some."

No wonder families of color are more likely to talk with their kids about race/ethnicity than are white families. Sixty-one percent of black parents, 56 percent of Asian parents and 46 percent of Hispanic parents say their families discuss race/ethnicity often or sometimes. Just a quarter of white parents say they talk about it with any frequency. The survey results for how families discuss other categories were not broken down this way.
Don't see the graphic above? Click here.
Even when parents do talk about social identity, according to the survey, many wait until their kids are 10, 11 or even 12 years old. Jennifer Kotler Clarke, who oversaw the Sesame survey, says parents seem to think younger kids don't notice these differences, though "there's all sorts of research that suggest that children very early on notice definitely physical differences between different people and they make meaning of those differences. And there's discrimination very early on."

How early on? Try six months old.

In a previous Life Kit episode on how to raise kind kids, we reported that, even as babies, humans not only show a preference for those who look and act like us, but they also show a desire to see those not like us be treated badly.

In a University of Toronto study, infants as young as six months old showed a preference for members of their own race and against members of different races. And this us vs. them mentality extends beyond physical differences.

[Professor Kiley] Hamlin, at the University of British Columbia, introduced a new variable to her puppet shows. When the puppet and baby liked different snacks, the baby wasn't just less kind. She often wanted the puppet that did not share her snack preference punished.

"Babies did seem to care more about who was like them than they cared about niceness and meanness," says Hamlin.

Don't see the graphic above? Click here.
As a result, Kotler Clarke says, all grown-ups need to be proactive about explaining the differences kids see and making clear: Different isn't bad. If children don't get help from parents "and have to try to make meaning of different social identities [on their own], they may come up with all sorts of weird and strange reasons that people are somewhat different."

Exhibit A: Beverly Daniel Tatum still remembers the day her 3-year-old son was told by a white preschool classmate: " 'Your skin is brown because you drink chocolate milk.' " And then, she says, her son came home and asked if it was true. No, she assured him, your skin is brown because of something called melanin. We all have it, she told him - you simply have a little more.

This interaction highlights what may be the single biggest warning sign in Sesame's new survey results: Many of the parents who are talking not just about race/ethnicity but also gender, class and religion are doing so because their children are hearing negative comments about their own identities. Beverly Daniel Tatum explained the truth to her son about his skin color. But what about the little boy whose misconception set off this chain reaction?

According to Sesame's survey results, 40 percent of black parents say their children have heard a negative comment about their race; that's compared to 17 percent of white parents. Which helps explain why black parents are twice as likely to talk about race with their kids. It's a similar story in other categories.

Among parents of trans or nonbinary children, half reported their children hearing negative comments and were much more likely to talk about gender identity with their kids than were the parents of kids who'd heard no criticism. Also, 46 percent of Muslim parents and 28 percent of Jewish parents reported that their children had heard a negative comment about their religion. And it's clear from the results, this criticism is compelling many minority parents to have difficult conversations with their kids about identity that majority parents should also be having - but aren't.

"It's not the role or responsibility of a group of parents to be having those conversations," says Sesame's Haider. "It really is the responsibility of everyone."

In a separate survey, Sesame Workshop also queried preschool and elementary school educators about how they approach social identity in the classroom. Interestingly, teachers say they feel that social class - not race/ethnicity, gender, country of origin or any other social category - has the biggest impact on their students' ability to succeed, yet class is also the category they believe is least appropriate to discuss in school, and the one they're the least comfortable talking about with students.

Differences like class, skin color, gender and religion don't have to divide us, but ignoring them won't unite us either. Conversation is key, Sesame Workshop argues in this new report, to building your child's own positive sense of identity - along with a healthy respect for everyone else's.
This story was updated on 10/11/2019.

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Why All Parents Should Talk With Their Kids About Social Identity

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A majority of parents rarely, if ever, discuss race/ethnicity, gender, class or other categories of social identity with their kids, according to a new, nationally representative survey of more than 6,000 parents conducted by Sesame Workshop and NORC at the University of Chicago.

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Norman Rockwell's "The Problem We All Live With," depicting Ruby Bridges, the first Black child to attend an all white elementary school in the South.

Artwork approved by The Norman Rockwell Family Agency.

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