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Speaking and Listening in Content Area Learning

"Access to complex ideas, for many years of the learner's life, requires oral rather than written input."

https://tinyurl.com/utrk7dw

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There is no reading gene that is passed from one generation to the next. Each and every brain must be taught to read anew. Unlike hair or eye color, which are coded in DNA, reading is a complex, rule-based system that must be imposed on biological structures that were designed or evolved for other reasons (Wolf, 2007).

Although most children are born with the right structures, these structures don't inherently know how to read. They are hardwired to speak and listen; in other words, we were born to talk (Hulit, Howard, & Fahey, 2010). Reading and writing are optional accessories that are bolted onto a speaking and listening brain.

Listening and reading comprehension

Decades of research, not to mention personal experiences, confirm that listening comprehension outpaces reading comprehension from early childhood through at least middle school. Based on their review of research, Stricht and James (1984) analyzed the gap between listening and reading comprehension by age of learner (see Figure 1). What is obvious from this figure is the fact that access to complex ideas, for many years of the learner's life, requires oral rather than written input.

Simply stated, children can listen to and talk about much more complex ideas than they can read (and probably write) about. In addition to the research, anyone who has ever read a bedtime story to a preschooler knows that listening comprehension is more sophisticated than reading comprehension. The proof comes from nights when you're tired and you skip a page while reading a bedtime story. That 3-, 4-, or 5-year-old's eyes pop open. You are accused of skipping some of the story, and the punishment is that now you must start over. Yes, in fact, the child is listening, understanding, and comparing the text with his or her expectations.

What is less obvious from personal experience is the persistence of this gap. According to Stricht and James (1984), the gap extends well into middle school. This gap has implications for high-quality instruction across the learner's elementary and middle school experience, and oral language development should not be considered solely the role and responsibility of early childhood educators.

Figure 1. Listening and Reading Comprehension by Age (Stricht & James,1984)

Speaking and listening and text complexity

In this time of great interest of increasing text complexity, the data represented in Figure 1 raised several question for us. Is it possible that one way to ensure that students read at increasingly sophisticated levels is to focus on increasing students' listening comprehension? In other words, if we pushed listening comprehension higher than identified in the previous research, would reading comprehension follow? If we did so, would it take longer to close the gap, or would the gap size remain, although at a higher level?

If we want to ensure that students read increasingly complex informational texts, it seems logical that students should be talking during their content area learning (e.g., Nystrand & Gamoran, 1991). Although there is significant attention to the Common Core reading and writing standards, we believe that teachers should also attend to the increased demands of the Speaking and Listening domain, especially Anchor Standard 1, which states that students should

Prepare for and participate effectively in a range of conversations and collaborations with diverse partners, building on others' ideas and expressing their own clearly and persuasively. (National Governors Association Center for Best Practices & Council of Chief State School Officers, 2010, p. 22)

There is a lot to focus on in this standard. First, students should come prepared for the discussion and not simply be expected to work collaboratively with no preparation. Second, students are expected to interact effectively with a wide range of people, not just their friends and others they choose to interact with. Third, students are expected to build on each other's ideas, maintaining the conversation and continually building on the ideas of others in the discussion. And finally, they need to be able to do all of this while they express their ideas clearly and persuasively.

Anchor Standard 1 in the Speaking and Listening domain of the Common Core State Standards (CCSS) represents increased expectations for students, especially students in the primary grades. Figure 2 contains grade-level expectations for this standard. We have bolded words and phrases that did not appear in the previous grade to highlight the instructional components of each grade. For example, students in third grade are expected to "stay on topic," which is not an expectation in second grade. Analyzing the differences by grade level, known as vertical alignment, is critical if teachers are going to develop teaching points aligned with the CCSS. In addition, teachers need to ensure that students have opportunities to engage in speaking and listening regularly, which may require changes to the instructional environment.

Figure 2. CCR Speaking & Listening Anchor Standard 1

8th Grade Students

SL.8.1
Engage effectively in a range of collaborative discussions (one-on-one, in groups, and teacher-led) with diverse partners on grade 8 topics, texts, and issues, building on others' ideas and expressing their own clearly.

Kindergarten Students
SL.K.1
Participate in collaborative conversations with diverse partners about kindergarten topics and texts with peers and adults in small and larger groups.

SL.K.1A
Follow agreed-upon rules for discussions (e.g., listening to others and taking turns speaking about the topics and texts under discussion).

SL.K.1B
Continue a conversation through multiple exchanges.

Instructional ideas for speaking and listening

There are a number of ideas for ensuring that students across the grade span and in different content areas are able to practice their speaking and listening skills. Most importantly, teachers need to dedicate time every day for students to engage in collaborative conversations in which they use academic language with their peers. In fact, we recommend that about 50% of the instructional minutes devoted to content area learning be used for collaborative conversations with peers. This is based on the success that the students in Chula Vista, California, had when their teachers increased the amount of student-to-student interaction using academic language (Frey, Fisher, & Nelson, 2013). In addition to providing students an opportunity to expand their understanding of the content as they engage in peer-mediated instruction (e.g., Sperry, Neitzel, & Engelhardt-Wells, 2010), it provides teachers an excellent opportunity to work with small groups of students who need additional support to achieve their goals.

Some evidence-based speaking and listening instructional routines have been useful for students during content area instruction in the past:

Technology offers teachers new ways to engage students in speaking and listening tasks. Even very young children are learning to follow oral directions while using tablets. Some enhancing speaking and listening tasks can be used in elementary content area instruction:

Listening Gallery Walk in which students create a visual image, record themselves talking about the image, and then code it with a symbol that will allow others to access the digital file. One way to do this is with QR codes that can be printed and included in the image itself. Alternatively, students can use the Aurasma app. This is an augmented-reality application that allows users to create and post video to enhance a viewing experience. For example, some museums use Aurasma for their patrons to view additional content after pointing a smartphone or tablet at a display. In terms of classroom application, students can create their own videos and pair them with displayed work. For example, during their investigation of artists, students in Ms. Bledsoe's third-grade class narrated their original artwork that had been inspired by a specific artist. When a tablet enabled with Aurasma was pointed at one of the art pieces, the video that accompanied the art played. When students' parents visited for open house, they were able to see their children talking about their work and to learn more about the other students in the class.

Photo narratives in which students collect images and then record a narrative to accompany the images. For example, the first graders in Anthony Munoz's classroom planted seeds. Each day, they took a picture of the container in which their seed was planted. Mr. Munoz read aloud the text From Seed to Plant (Gibbons, 1993) several times as the plants grew. Mr. Munoz helped his students create a time lapse video using Quicktime, and the students recorded their narrative about the growth of the plant that accompanied the video.

Digital storytelling to create original narrative and informational pieces. The Storybird app provides access to thousands of illustrations and photographs to illustrate original pieces of writing. These are best when completed collaboratively in order to create lots of opportunities for students to engage in meaningful discussion with one another. The Voicethread website offers two-way communication between writers and readers. Like Storybird, students create a digital story using the Voicethread tools and their own illustrations. In addition, they dictate the text for each page. Subsequent listeners can either listen to the writer's own voice or read the dictated script. Importantly, readers can then pose questions and offer connections that are in turn viewed by other readers.

As part of their social studies curriculum, Davinia Thompson's second-grade students used Voicethread to develop a class digital book on people who make a difference in their community. Ms. Thompson compiled each student's contributions and uploaded them to the Voicethread website. Later in the centers, students viewed the class book and recorded their comments and questions. Ms. Thompson then had the entire class view the completed digital story, with their questions included, so the class could continue the conversation about the topic.

Talking in class

Regardless of the specific approach that a teacher takes, students simply must talk in class. We have to change the climate, expectations, and accountability for student-to-student interaction in classrooms everywhere. A day should not go by in which students silently try to learn content. Instead, there should be a hum of learning, with many voices engaged in discussions about the topics under investigation. Only then will we fully realize the literacy achievements of our students orally, digitally, and in print.

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Speaking and Listening in Content Area Learning

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Oral language development facilitates print literacy. In this article, we focus on the ways in which teachers can ensure students' speaking and listening skills are developed. We provide a review of effective classroom routines, including some that can be enhanced with technology.

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Corinne calexaki@schools.nyc.gov

If you would like support using Soundtrap in your classroom, or if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask!

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Write one or more ideas for integrating Soundtrap into your classroom. 

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Write one or more ideas for integrating Soundtrap into your classroom. 

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These can be your own ideas, or an idea you liked from the "Inspiration & Lesson Plans" link.

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Podcasts, & Information About Podcasting
https://padlet.com/SoundtrapEDU/PodcastWithSoundtrap

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You have questions; they have answers.
https://edublog.soundtrap.com/teacher-portal/

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Step-by-step guide for teachers to get started using Soundtrap in their classroom with resources and support on functions in and out of the studio

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See How Other Teachers are Podcasting in the Classroom

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See How Other Teachers are Podcasting in the Classroom

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https://padlet.com/calexaki1/6ljd7u0ghnjfbhgo

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- Select a short videos to demonstrate all actions in Soundtrap.
- Great for teachers and students.
- Most videos can auto-translate closed captions.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLto3DQIYibDiz7Rt7oYpGUZyiXwX56RkR&app=desktop

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Soundtrap for Education - Student Course

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As a companion course to the new Certified Educator Level 1 course, this student course is offered to help students learn the basics of Soundtrap quickly and...

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1. Click the +
2. Write your name
3. Add the name of the podcast
4. (Optional) Add a link to the podcast

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I will check and update this Padlet periodically; add a question anytime.

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1. Click the +
2. Write your name
3. List as many sounds from the audio compilation as you can.

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1.https://www.soundtrap.com/edu/
2.  Log in with your HSEI email
3. Temporary Password: hSEI123!

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Skip to main content

Try it free for 30 days,
or join an existing school account.

Explore creative sound making in the classroom

Soundtrap for Education empowers students and teachers to explore creative sound recording in all subjects, for all ages and ability levels. Whether students are exploring the ways music can take presentations to the next level, collaborating with classmates to create a song, or recording podcasts to share knowledge on subjects, Soundtrap for Education amplifies learning.

Create, communicate and collaborate...

Enjoy endless collaboration; between students, teachers, different classes wherever you are, in real-time.

...from anywhere on any device

Soundtrap works seamlessly across all wifi connected devices. And since the Studio is completely cloud-powered, students can continue working on their music or podcasts from home. You will have access to an extensive collection of quality loops, effects, and software instruments. Soundtrap is easy and intuitive to use by both teachers and students-of all ability levels-who want to create professional and polished projects.

How teachers are using Soundtrap today

Sound creation for your digital classroom

Take music class online with integrations to Noteflight Learn and Flat for Education, and also with LMS platforms like Google Classroom, Canvas, Schoology and MusicFirst Classroom. Creation, assessment, and evaluation of assignments is smooth and seamless. Soundtrap is committed to being responsive to the future-ready classroom.

Safe and secure environment

Soundtrap for Education provides students with a safe and secure online environment to learn and play in. We work hard to meet or exceed legal compliance requirements and to stay abreast of the fast-changing privacy law landscape. We are committed to being a trusted partner for our schools and to help schools meet their own compliance obligations under the privacy laws. For more information, please visit our Trust Center.

Soundtrap for Education is trusted by more than 10,000 teachers worldwide

"Young people who struggle with academic writing and have brilliant ideas... these young people are frightened by the paper and pen. They want to sing, dance, shout, use slang, challenge conventions. This is where Soundtrap comes in."

Tamar Brown
New York City DOE Teacher

"My goal is for my students to be people who can think on a deeper level. Project based learning, which Soundtrap greatly supports, takes them out of the 'give me the answers' mentality and forces them to think and create on their own."

Kelly Martin
New York City Teacher

"Soundtrap is a game changer for my students. It has helped them learn that music is a tool that can spark the imagination and bring people together. Once those doors are open the possibilities are endless."

Melissa Salguero
Music Teacher at PS 48

"Soundtrap allows my students to express themselves to me emotionally, socially and academically when it is often so hard for them to do so verbally."

Allessandra Moore
Middle School Speech Language Pathologist

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Soundtrap for Education - Make music and podcasts online

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Create a podcast or use the beat maker for music or math. Soundtrap is a safe online tool for teachers and schools. Start your free trial now!

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Incorporating Close Listening in the Classroom

"Good listening skills help people of all ages gain the knowledge necessary to be good students, employees, and employers, as well as expand on the quality of our personal relationships."

https://tinyurl.com/y685773k

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"Huh?"

"What was that?"

"Can you repeat that one more time?"

"I wasn't listening; can you say that again?"

Teachers frequently hear these types of responses, from all different types of students, during all types of classes. Students that do not pay attention, and do not listen closely during instruction, do not retain information. Teachers find themselves repeating things over, and over, and over again. And as frustrating as this can be for the teacher, it might be just as frustrating for students. Do students know how to listen? I mean REALLY listen? Have they been introduced to listening skills? Do they know what they are supposed to listen to, or for? Do they know the purpose behind why they are being asked to listen?

What is Close Listening?

Close listening requires students to actively listen to information that is being provided by a speaker. It can be live, or a recording (video or audio) of a speaker that is relaying information, an opinion, or entertainment for a purpose. Listening skills are helpful to engage students in the environment that surrounds them, to better understand a concept or what is expected of them to correctly complete a task. Teachers should select appropriately chosen examples that fit the subject matter. It may be influential and persuasive, such as a speech given by a president or civil rights leader; figurative and beautiful, like an excerpt from a play, poem, or novel; or informative and logical, perhaps a documentary by a scientist or astronaut. Just to name a few. Sometimes close listening is a skill included in watching a production or excerpt of a work. Close listening skills can be adapted to accommodate many different types of classroom activities, and sometimes the impact of immersing visual and listening skills into one activity can better reach students with different learning styles.

Why Teach Close Listening?

Good listening skills help people of all ages gain the knowledge necessary to be good students, employees, and employers, as well as expand on the quality of our personal relationships. In the educational, professional, and personal world learning close listening skills can further our understanding and knowledge on a topic, expand our use of logic and persuasion, and prove our worth as a contributing member of society.

The Common Core State Standards say that focusing only on foundational reading skills is not enough. Literary and listening skills must be practiced at all grade levels. "If literacy levels are to improve, the aims of the English language arts classroom, especially in the earliest grades, must include oral language in a purposeful, systematic way, in part because it helps students master the printed word." (CCSS Appendix A, p26). For this reason, Read Aloud texts play an important role in the elementary Common Core, especially in grades K-2. As students in these early years of school cannot read yet, they can track read along with the teacher as well as formulate their listening skills during instruction and listening activities.

The Common Core State Standards testing includes audio passages and presentations for most grades. Students will be asked to listen and extract the necessary information needed to answer questions related to what they heard. See an example of a Smarter Balanced Assessment Consortium 4 th grade sample question below.

In an article published by the National Education Association, it was noted that good versus poor listening skills can have a major effect in the classroom. The article also defines the traits of a "good" versus "poor" listener and how to better refine listening skills.

Close listening skills are helpful for students of all grade levels. Watch this video for an example of a very creative teacher using hand gestures and specific language to incorporate close listening strategies in her classroom. Close listening strategies can be modified for all types of classrooms.

Tips for Teaching Close Listening Skills

Background - Provide students with an introduction and any necessary prior knowledge about what they are going to be listening to. Close Listening sometimes varies from Close Reading in this aspect; close reading activities might not provide students with background information for the first read-through of a selected text. Sometimes close listening activities require some historical context or background knowledge about the selected listening activity.

Focus - Encourage students to focus on who is doing the speaking (visual/audio recordings, or live speakers).

Vocabulary - Have students listen for clue words or important vocabulary about central ideas or the rephrasing of ideas during the listening activity (e.g., the central idea is..., in other words..., as said before..., etc.)

Share - After listening, have students share ideas and paraphrase what was said by the speaker with a partner. Sharing ideas can provide more insight and better understanding for students, as they might have different understandings of what they heard.

Repeat - When necessary, have students listen multiple times to any important quotes, statements, or sections of a close listening activity. Close listening skills will improve with each close listening opportunity. More exposure offers students the chance to hear something different each time they listen.

Have you incorporated close listening strategies and activities in your classroom? Discuss your experiences in the comments section below!

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Incorporating Close Listening in the Classroom

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"Huh?" "What was that?" "Can you repeat that one more time?" "I wasn't listening; can you say that again?" Teachers frequently hear these types of responses, from all different types of students, during all types of classes. Students that do not pay attention, and do not listen closely during instruction, do not retain information....

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Isaiah Marrero: ""The Tell-Tale Heart' by Edgar Allan Poe"

Denys Ventura: "It was not the old man who vexed me, but his Evil Eye."

Anthony Munoz: "He had the eye of a vulture."

Denys Ventura: "I undid the lantern...for the hinges creaked."

Isaiah Marrero: ""The old man sprang up in bed crying out, 'Who's there?'"

Kyra Tarrant: "Now, I say, there came to my ears a low, dull, quick sound."

Perla Rodriguez: "It continued and became more distinct."

Yaneldys Trinidad: "There entered three officers of the police."

Perla Rodriguez: "Almighty God! I found that the noise was not within my ears. What could I do? Oh God!"

Kyra Tarrant: "It was the beating of the old man's heart."

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Students have guests from another city (state, country!) featured on a podcast.

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1. "In lieu of a written report, create a podcast."

2. "Create soundscapes for each major biome, using a variety of sounds to identify characteristics, flora, and fauna."

3. "Compare and contrast articulation, intonation, tone, & pronunciation of recordings."

4. "Record instructions for a recipe and include sound effects."

5. "Students can express how they feel using the Loops Library and instruments."
https://padlet.com/calexaki1/6ljd7u0ghnjfbhgo

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2) More Tutorials - Less Than Two Minutes

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2) More Tutorials - Less Than Two Minutes

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- If you didn't find it at the other link, you'll find it here.
- Great for teachers and students.
- Most videos can auto-translate closed captions.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQXQvkfg99q6_yMB3bkm1vDTDaZlrHeAn

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Learn how to make music and get creative in the Soundtrap studio!

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Radiolab

“Exploration of science, philosophy, and ethics using innovative composition and sound design.”

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab

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Where can we get the sounds from to integrate in pieces of work?

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1. train tracks, wind, voice reading, electricity, white noise, accent, static, different voices, bird, chainsaw?, creaking, heart beat, breath, yell, different voices and tones, knock, long heartbeat, different rates of speed. eating/chewing

2. bang on a table top, walking, shifting of the mic, metal hitting the floor/table

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Close Listening Strategies

"One of the most sincere forms of respect is actually listening to what another has to say." - Bryant H. McGill

https://tinyurl.com/y43z3k62

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Week 3: Close Listening Strategies: ELA Secondary: They Heard it, But Did They Listen

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Close listening to improve vocabulary

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WELCOME TO OFFICE LADIES!The Office co-stars and best friends, Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey, are doing the ultimate The Office re-watch podcast for you. Each week, Jenna and Angela will break down an episode of The Office and give exclusive behind-the-scene stories that only two people who were there, can tell you.

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Can we view procedures on how to add soundtrap sounds

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cars
soda opening'
paper tearing
bird chirping
poem
eye of a vulture hah hah hah crow?
heartbeat
footsteps
loud static
beating of the old man's heart
Denys
Justin
Isaiah
Kayla T
Kyra T

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Can be used for PD with Adult Learning to add mood to presentations

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oprah

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Are students able to make an account so that we can work remotely and maybe collaboratively?

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machine
bike
crow
heart beat
slow heart beat
door knock

2nd time
Isaiah
Denise
Justin Marrero
Tiana Hopkins
John

Walking steps
wind blowing

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pattern of sounds

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We and our partners use cookies to personalize your experience, to show you ads based on your interests, and for measurement and analytics purposes. By using our website and our services, you agree to our use of cookies as described in our Cookie Policy.

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wind
steps
crow
a door closing
regular heart beat
knock
fast heart beat
slow heart beat
door opening

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it can be used to identify type of metals or chemical reactions

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TED TALK

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door opening, heartbeat, knocking door, footsteps, wind, crow, sound of deep breath.
Student: Kyra

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add sound to some lab

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The Breakfast Club https://thebreakfastclub.iheart.com/featured/breakfast-club/

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Want to know more about Breakfast Club? Get their official bio, social pages and articles on The Breakfast Club!

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Heart beat
Bird
Moving train
Knocking
Echo sound

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Oral Presentation

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IN THE NO (three episodes)
A must listen for all men, women, and students!

Discover the meaning and power of the word "NO" through a gripping and chillingly relatable lens.

Get woke to the ambiguity of "CONSENT."

Pt1 https://tinyurl.com/y2o93kcz
Pt2 https://tinyurl.com/y6ampz7w
Pt3 https://tinyurl.com/y5m4t9vk

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[RADIOLAB SHOW INTRO]

JAD ABUMRAD: Let's just start the beginning. How did this series -- I know it's ancient history for you already, but how did it come about? What was the sort of spark for it?

KAITLIN PREST: I remember seeing the word "No" just written down on the page, and immediately being like, "Oh my God, I have so much to say about that word."

JAD: Jad here. This is Radiolab. Today we're gonna be airing work from radio maker Kaitlin Prest.

KAITLIN: Wow, how exciting.

JAD: I know, it is exciting.

JAD: Because what we're going to play for you today sent all of us here on quite a journey. Kaitlin is a fellow traveler. She just released a show through the CBC called The Shadows. Apparently it involves puppets. You should definitely check it out. But before that, she was the host and creator of a podcast called The Heart, and here's what happened. About a year ago, about four or five different people on my staff seemingly all at once were like, "You've got to hear this series from The Heart." It was made pre-#MeToo, but now that we're in #MeToo, you stop what you're doing, listen to this series. It's a four-part thing, and it's called No.

KAITLIN: I personally I've always had a complicated relationship with saying no in any context, but especially within a sexual context. And one of the people in our crew wanted to make -- she just said, "I want to make something about, like, "No." Like, just "No."

JAD: Now, when I finally listened to the series, I was like, "Damn, I have never heard anything like this. Like really and truly." And so what we're gonna do is kind of construct for you the journey that we went on. It sort of starts with Kaitlin's work. And so today, we're gonna play you excerpts from her series that she produced for The Heart. And then over the next few weeks, we're gonna dive deeper into some of the issues that she raises in her series. Because like I said, when I heard it and when we started talking about it internally, it sent us on a whole thing. And we ended up having a series of conversations that went all over the place. And we'll play you some of that in the next two episodes. But right now, we want to play you excerpts from Kaitlin's series. And just as a warning, there are scenes in what you're about to hear that are sexually explicit. Very much so at times. And strong language. Probably not the kind of thing that you want to listen to with kids anywhere nearby. Anyhow, we're going to start with an excerpt from the second episode of Kaitlin's series No for The Heart. This episode she titled Inheritance.

FEMALE SPEAKER: I fucked him like a champ.

MALE SPEAKER: Seriously?

FEMALE SPEAKER: The bed was in the middle of the room, and I had a urinary tract infection for, like, two weeks after.

MALE SPEAKER: Shit, dude. That's intense.

KAITLIN: Hello, and welcome to this month's edition of Audio Smut.

KAITLIN: I'm in my 20s. I left my tiny little town for the big city. I live in NYC now. I make an artsy, feminist sex radio show. Third wave, sex-positive feminism tells me that I was onto something back in my teens. Adopting the same ruthless sexual posturing that boys are encouraged to, would allow me to wield some of their power. If we fucked without feelings, we too could be free. Having slut pride would subvert the double standard, and it would force the world to recognize that women's sexual pleasure is real. The only problem is that I hate casual sex. To make up for it, I masturbate with abandon and tell the world about it. I've become an expert at advocating for my own pleasure. I know what I want and I feel entitled to it.

KAITLIN: I really want you to sleep over, but just FYI I'm not secretly inviting you over to fuck. Is that cool?

MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, totally.

MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that's cool.

KAITLIN: After all these years, I've mastered the art of saying no.

MALE SPEAKER: Want a lift?

FEMALE SPEAKER: Are you free to do this job that totally doesn't appeal to you?

KAITLIN: I don't think it's the right one for me.

MALE SPEAKER: Hey baby, can I get a smile?

FEMALE SPEAKER: Stretch yourself out from downward dog into play.

FEMALE SPEAKER: Hey, are you able to come out on Friday to my barbeque?

KAITLIN: I know now that what I'm looking for is love, even though I know it's corny.

[TELEVISION AUDIO]

KAITLIN: I'm on a big brown couch wrapped up in the arms of my friend Jay.

JAY: You want another beer?

KAITLIN: His arms are really dude-ly. I'm trying my best not to like this more than our friendship would deem appropriate.

JAY: You want another beer?

KAITLIN: But of course, I can't stop myself from wondering if this friendship is "the" friendship, the right-under-your-nose-that-whole-time kind of friendship.

KAITLIN: Do you want a cigarette?

KAITLIN: I've been friends with Jay for eight years. It's, like, my oldest friendship.

JAY: Hey, are you okay? How'd the date go?

KAITLIN: Jay and I have always kept it in our pants, and that's given way to this perfect, friendly intimacy. We call each other 'babe' and 'boo.' We bitch about our relationship dramas. We have extensive G-chat conversations into the night and always sign off with the word 'love' spelled in full.

JAY: What do I do if I hate my current relationship?

JAY: And that's good night. Night. I love you.

JAY: But that being the case, there are -- I think there are, like, great, great hook-ups that are just hook-ups, you know? Like a great one-night stand.

KAITLIN: I don't think we agree on this and that's fine.

KAITLIN: Let's just talk about something else.

KAITLIN: I've always thought he was hot. It looks a little bit like my cousin Robert I had a forbidden crush on when I was a kid.

JAY: Hey, do you still have that boyfriend?

KAITLIN: Nah. Broke up with that guy

KAITLIN: It's the Fourth of July. It's late. 11:30.

JAY: Hey, I got super sunburned today at the beach.

KAITLIN: I got a text from him asking him if I want to come over for a snuggle party.

[KNOCK ON THE DOOR]

KAITLIN: We put on some music and sit on the bed.

KAITLIN: So this woman, she's so cool. And she -- we kind of have this thing in common where we're both really feminine people, and we were talking about how, like, she's not really used to making the move, but that she sort of creates the conditions in which a move can be made.

JAY: Because that puts, like, some weird power into that, like, submissive role that I just don't think is really there.

KAITLIN: Are you serious? That's dumb.

KAITLIN: Oh really? You're gonna --- mmm.

[KISSING SOUNDS]

KAITLIN TO HERSELF: Are we gonna fall in love?

JAY: I'm -- I feel like I'm kind of nervous.

KAITLIN: I'm starting to undo my pants. It's too quick.

KAITLIN: Is it okay if we just make out?

KAITLIN: He says yeah, but he keeps going. He's not reading me.

KAITLIN: Hey, Jay? Is it okay if we -- I don't wanna do sex things.

KAITLIN: Sorry, I just have to pause the scene for a second and give you some information. So what you're hearing right now, if you hadn't already noticed, is a re-enactment.

KAITLIN: This is an actor.

KAITLIN: His name is Tommy.

KAITLIN: And then I'll be like, "Hey, like can you -- can, like, slow down a little bit?

TOMMY: So it's just like -- like, just ignoring it, basically.

TOMMY: Like, not even hearing it.

KAITLIN: He was pretty, like ...

KAITLIN: In the making of this story, I called the real Jay to verify what happened that night. I also asked him if he wanted to write and re-enact the whole story with me. But he didn't.

TOMMY: Are you guys still friends?

KAITLIN: Well, we started being friends again since I called him and asked him if he would do an interview about, like, the weirdest night of our friendship.

KAITLIN: You're going to hear more from the real Jay later. But what I need you to know right now in this moment, is that what you're hearing isn't the real thing. I built this scene so that it sounds as close to the way that I remember it as possible.

KAITLIN: And then we'll kiss again, and it'll get kind of intense again. And then I'll say it again. And then you get kind of pissed at that moment. You say ...

TOMMY: [sighs] Fine. Fine. I think I'm just gonna go to bed. I'm tired.

KAITLIN: I stare at the overhead light. I look at the clock. Almost 1 am. The air is tense. I feel like it's my fault. But I know better than that. I should just go. But I don't. I'm frozen. I can't move.

KAITLIN: Can you come back?

[KISSING SOUNDS]

KAITLIN: He's back at the zipper of my jeans. He puts my hand on his dick.

KAITLIN: Wait. If you -- how about, like, 'kay. This is -- what if you just, like, go to the bathroom and -- and just, like, yank one out and come back?

KAITLIN: 'Cause then we can just make out and it'll be fine, right? Just do it.

JAY: Come on. Just touch it. Come on. Come on. Just feel it.

KAITLIN: On the outside, I act like everything's fine. And on the inside I give up, in the way that feels so familiar to me. I make myself come in front of him so he can make himself come, and we can go back to having a nice night. I feel defeated. At the same time, I'm getting off. I'm really good at masturbating, so it's not hard for it to feel good. For a few moments, I forget that I feel like shit. I'm sad when I leave. I don't get angry until days afterwards.

KAITLIN: July 5th, 2013. I had the most vile experience with Jay last night.

KAITLIN: And then I'm so angry I can barely write about it in my diary.

KAITLIN: It's just a big scribble. I'm angry at so many things. I performed for him.

KAITLIN: I performed to placate him.

KAITLIN: I wanted him to be happy more than I wanted myself to be happy. I forgot about myself.

KAITLIN: He forgot about me. He was supposed to be my friend. My defenses were down. What the fuck? I thought this was a dumb high school dude thing, a college dude thing. I thought I was past this shit. I thought I'd practiced avoiding this shit. I'm fucking 27.

KAITLIN: It's true. He didn't force me to do anything, but I nonetheless felt like I had no choice. Why? Is that on me? Or is that on him? I begin to wonder if having sex I don't want is something I've absorbed from generations past. If it's something I've inherited from my foremothers.

KAITLIN'S MOM: How do you say no, that's rude? Or that's not polite, or ...

KAITLIN'S MOM: Why are you saying no? You're hurting the guy's feelings.

KAITLIN'S MOM'S FRIEND: With someone who you're interested in, if you say no, are they gonna just give up and walk away? And then you're going, "Okay, is -- should I just go along with it so I don't lose that. He could have been a great guy. But if he's that pushy, is he that great of a guy, right? You balance that out, but I think that is where the challenge lies, is with what if he then just walks away?

KAITLIN: Another friend of ours.

FRIEND: I mean, it's subtle because, you know, on the one hand you're having attention. I mean, I was brought up as a female to -- to want male attention, you know? That -- that was a status symbol actually. You know, if you were a attractive enough woman that you could get attention from men, that was considered an important thing. That was how you were maybe going to end up finding a husband and having children and doing that really conventional stuff. So those ideas, they don't just, like, come up all of a sudden, you know? You're -- you're surrounded by that your whole upbringing.

KAITLIN: And like, when was the first time that you had an experience where you felt like you were allowed to change gears?

FRIEND: I was in my late 40s, and he stopped and asked, "Are you sure this is what you want?" I had never ever, ever been asked that before, and I was, like, shocked. I didn't -- like, you know, speechless in responding to him, because I never had been asked that before.

KAITLIN: By this point in my life, I felt strongly that I was different from my foremothers. That my generation would be different. But I talk to people my age and I hear the same attitudes, same feelings.

WOMAN #1: He kept telling me that the reasons I was saying no were stupid.

WOMAN #2: And I was drunk and crying. A drunk, crying girl generally wants to be consoled to some extent but not with sex.

WOMAN #3: I told him he couldn't fuck me and then his dick was in me, you know? And then I was like, "Oh my God, we're having sex. I thought we talked about this." And even then, the whole night was nice. That part was -- just sucked. How do I give him what he wants in a way that's not terrible for me, but I can, like, deal with? It's like your gut instinct will tell you, like, "No, I don't want this." And say no in a cute way and then say no in a force way and then push. And then there was a point where you just, like -- it's like I literally just gave up. Let's just let him have this now, because I fought enough. And like, I do not want to make a scene. I don't want to wake up anyone and like, you know, it's like, "Oh, my roommate's sleeping and she's gonna -- again being like a slut on the couch." And, like, it was like these mental gymnastics that you do to not tell yourself that you're not putting your needs first, but that, like, all these people matter so much.

KAITLIN: I talked to my 20-year-old cousin. She's almost a decade younger than me.

KAITLIN'S COUSIN: Like my first boyfriend, I just wanted to please because I didn't know what I was doing. So I was just going for it and trying stuff and, like, not asking questions. And at the beginning it's, "Oh, I want that person to like me. I want this to be fun for that person." And not thinking about yourself and just being like, "Okay, I'm trying stuff."

KAITLIN: It makes me think of something that my best friend Lara said.

KAITLIN: I was talking about being a people pleaser, and like how -- and you said that that's how -- that's how women ...

LARA: That's how we survive. Yeah. I think women survive by, yeah, being aware and reading social cues. And we know when someone's gonna be angry, we know when someone might lash out. We know when someone's afraid, we know when somebody's sad. We know when somebody's happy, and -- and we know when -- when we're safe, and we know when we're not safe. And sometimes, you know, there's the element of using sex as a social currency to stay safe, and using sex as a social currency to belong in the group, even if the group is just you and one other person.

KAITLIN: I start to wonder if this is how anyone who's historically been on the shitty side of a power dynamic learns how to move through the world. How important it can be to be liked by someone who has your fate in their hands. Sometime after the Jay night, I discovered something that brought me answers.

KAITLIN: It sounds so different, doesn't it? It sounds so cool.

RAOUL: Is this what I'm gonna sound like?

KAITLIN: Isn't that the best?

KAITLIN: It was a recording. Not a re-enactment, an actual recording. I'd made this recording two years before the Jay night when I was 25. In this recording, I'm sitting in a windowless bedroom with a guy named Raoul. I'm doing an interview about intuition for the show.

KAITLIN: So intuition, what is it?

RAOUL: Well, a lot of times for me, intuition just means getting your mind out of the way and being observant.

KAITLIN: This guy Raoul and I dated for a while. I smiled at him in a coffee shop and he'd ran down the street after me asking if he could take me out sometime. I was charmed by him. But after a few weeks, he totally ghosted me. At the time of this recording it's been months since we'd last spoken. And I did that dumb thing where I needed an interview for the show and I was like, "Oh my God, Raoul! He would be perfect!" So here we are. When the interview ends, I leave the tape rolling because it's just good radio practice. Often, the most intimate parts of the interview happen after it's officially over. So we're just sitting on his bed. And I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I don't want to have sex with him or anything along those lines, but we're flirting a little bit and I'm enjoying it.

RAOUL: Why don't you lay down?

KAITLIN: Hmm. Hmm. I don't know if I feel like it.

RAOUL: Oh, I just want to caress you. Like a massage.

KAITLIN: I'm down. I'm down for that. I like massages. But ...

RAOUL: But I want you to start on your -- lying on your back.

KAITLIN: On my back? Oh, you can't turn off the lights!

RAOUL: No, no, no, I'm not going to! I'm turning this one off.

KAITLIN: You can't try to seduce me.

RAOUL: I won't. But I want you to lie on your back.

KAITLIN: Okay. And you can't touch me in sexy places.

RAOUL: Can you move this up?

KAITLIN: This. All the way off?

RAOUL: Yeah. So breasts are off?

KAITLIN: Breasts are off. Definitely.

RAOUL: What about under breast?

KAITLIN: Under breast is okay, but you have to be very, like, you know, aware. Use your intuition.

KAITLIN: But even if it seems like I want you to, you have to be nice and good, okay?

KAITLIN: A massage to me is as intimate as a handshake, but I know that's not the case for everyone. So I start to try to vocalize my boundaries, and make sure that what's going on is cool for everyone here.

KAITLIN: Can you -- do feel like you can do -- like, you can touch a woman without, like, having -- like, feeling like you need to fuck her?

RAOUL: Hmm. I don't know. Maybe.

KAITLIN: I don't know. I mean like, so for example -- for example right now, the way that you're touching me makes me feel like later I'm gonna have to tell you that I don't wanna have sex with you. Do you know what I mean?

KAITLIN: And I just wonder, like, if it's possible for -- like, is it possible for men to feel like -- to it -- to genuinely enjoy, like ...

RAOUL: I don't do anything I don't enjoy.

KAITLIN: Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. But don't -- but do you get off on, like, trying to change someone's mind?

RAOUL: I get off on good stuff.

KAITLIN: This is the sound of me and Raoul having sex. When I listen to this recording I hear myself say no again, presumably when he tries to escalate to full-on penetration.

RAOUL: Do you feel okay about that?

KAITLIN: I feel a little bit, like, weird, actually?

KAITLIN: Yeah. I mean, I feel good, but mostly just because I said I didn't want to.

RAOUL: Yeah, but aren't we just retarded when it comes to what we want? How do we know what we want? What part of you knows what you want? Is it your thinking analytical mind that knows what you want? No. How could it be? I mean, it doesn't make any sense. This isn't logical. We can only try guessing what we want.

KAITLIN: After the post-coital cigarette, I didn't stay over, which is really unlike me. I walked home through a gray Bushwick warehouse land angry at Raoul for ignoring everything I said, at myself for totally folding when he pushed my line, and at my body for betraying me, for enjoying the sex. I cut together the interview part of the recording we did, produced the Intuition show and left this recording silent in the archives for years. Until one shitty night just like it happened to me on the fourth of July with an old friend Jay.

KAITLIN: In the months after the Jay night, I dug up this recording and I listened closely to myself. I listened to the way that I actually sound in a night like this, where my boundaries are crossed.

KAITLIN: And you can't touch me in sexy places.

KAITLIN: When my best friend Lara listened to this, she said it definitely sounded like I wanted to fuck this guy. And if you take away the words and just listen to the sounds, this is probably exactly the way that I sounded when I was with Jay. Saying no in this sweet, seductive tone, and trying so hard to be nice and not hurt anybody's feelings that my "no" basically sounds like "fuck me." But on the other hand, I wonder how many people sound just like this when they're getting hot and heavy with someone, and they're trying to draw a line, express what they want in a way that doesn't break the flirtatious vibe, that doesn't negate the possibility of doing other things. I wonder how many people sound just like this when they're scared.

KAITLIN: I think this is why the definition of consent has evolved to mean more than "no means no," or even, "yes means yes." Consent is about knowing that someone is excited about what's going on. It's about knowing that both people are on the same page. And it's knowing that knowing that is really complicated. Not just because communication is hard and sex-ed is awful, but also because there are invisible social and historical contexts at play in these intimate moments; contexts that impact how entitled we feel to our own comfort, how likely we are to put someone else's needs first. These contexts could be historical like race or class or gender, or they could be super-situational, like when one person is a little bit in love with you and you aren't in love with them and you can totally sense that they'll do whatever you want. When things are uneven in this way, it's important to take extra care to create an emotional environment that allows for a no. I didn't feel like I had that space in either of these encounters. But on the other hand, I should have been stronger in advocating for myself.

KAITLIN: I'm bummed, because I thought I was over this shit. But it seems like I'm going to be struggling with this for my entire life. And after all this contemplating, the anger that I have at myself slowly dissipates. And I start getting angry at Jay. I wasn't that angry at Raoul because we weren't that close, but Jay and I were close. I expected so much more from him. I expected him to care more about the way I felt, in the same way that I had cared about the way he felt. I knew that the strong thing to do would be to talk all of this out with him. Two days after the night. He G-chatted me.

JAY: Hey, how was working yesterday? I ended up sleeping all day.

KAITLIN: And then two days later.

JAY: Hey, how was the rest of your weekend?

KAITLIN: A month later, on my birthday.

KAITLIN: Thanks, darling.

KAITLIN: Two weeks after that.

KAITLIN: Five days later.

JAY: Thank God you answered, I was getting worried you were actively ignoring me. How are you?

KAITLIN: I stay home every time our friends get together, and I know he'll be there. I try to tell our friends what happened, but when I say it out loud, it does sound like almost nothing. On the surface, we had what Jay would later call a drunken night of masturbation failure. No big deal. The problem is that we don't have a vocabulary around emotion that would let me describe with any sense of legitimacy the totally invisible things that happened between us that night.

JAD: When we come back from break, we're going to hear from the other side of the aisle. From the guy's point of view. Including Jay. This is Radiolab. We will continue in a moment.

RYAN: I'm Ryan and I'm calling from Lake Tahoe, California. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.

JAD: I'm Jad Abumrad, this is Radiolab. In The No part 1 in collaboration with Kaitlin Prest. So we're starting things off with excerpts from a series of stories that Kaitlin produced for a show she hosted and created called The Heart. The series was called No. We just heard a chunk from episode 2 of her series, which she calls Inheritance. In the third, she explores things from the men's point of view.

KAITLIN: Yeah, like there was -- somewhere along the way where I was like, I knew that I wanted to interview men. And I just interviewed the people who I had access to, which are my best friends, my exes, and I was like, "Oh, I'll interview men. I'll interview people who have -- have perpetrate -- like, who have pushed on the other side." And so I just -- yeah, I realized that almost all the -- all of my close friends had a story in the same way that all my close women friends had a story about pushing and knowing that they'd pushed too far.

JAD: And that's actually what you hear in episode 3 of the series, called Answers. We're going to play you some excerpts of that now, starting a few minutes into it.

KAITLIN: Just as I, unknowingly and to the disappointment of my parents, absorb certain ideas about how I was supposed to be a girl in this world, boys to the disappointment of their parents absorbed ideas, too.

BOY: Steal the beer, meet the girls, get them drunk, try to get some. That was the plan.

KAITLIN: A 13-year-old boy and his friends create an elaborate plan to get the girls to do sex stuff.

BOY: Combination of, like, like, beer and making the move. Like, that was, like, the magic answer.

KAITLIN: They learned from older boys and men's magazines that getting girls drunk is crucial to the goal of getting girls to do sex stuff.

BOY: I remember she even, like, kind of leans into me and I put my arm around her, and ...

KAITLIN: In the construction site after three beers, he slides his hand underneath the lip of Janice's pants. She sits up straight ...

BOY: That was weird, but, you know, that's, like, so I'll try a little more ...

KAITLIN: She takes his hand away.

BOY: Just give it a minute and then ...

BOY: I'm gonna try it again. 'Cause that's what you're supposed to do, right?

KAITLIN: She takes it away. He puts it back.

BOY: This whole, like, you know, no-means-yes thing that is, like, embedded in ...

KAITLIN: A 15-year-old boy leans back in his chair, letting his knees rest on the back of the chair in front of him. Leaning up against whatever girl's butt is in the seat.

BOY: If I was sitting behind a girl who I was attracted to, then I would spend a lot of time leaning back in this not that unnatural but not that natural either, position. And that -- uh, I'm cringing.

KAITLIN: A 26-year-old boy invites his good friend over to his house late at night, and playfully ignores her when she says she doesn't want to do anything below the belt. When she asks him to jerk off in the bathroom, he laughs and they resolve to jerk off beside each other instead. After that night, I don't talk to or see Jay for years. In that time I search for answers elsewhere. I become obsessed with the topic of consent.

KAITLIN: Okay. So the idea about the episode is that I want to hear about a time where, like, someone said no and you pushed it.

KAITLIN: It became clear you both wanted different ...

KAITLIN: Was consent inherent to you, like, when you were young? Or did you have to, like, unlearn things that you ...

KAITLIN: Almost every woman and queer I know has a story about being pressured or coerced into sex by a dude.

WOMAN: ... if you're going to be involved sexually with men ...

KAITLIN: And that made me wonder, does that mean that every man I know has a story about pressuring or coercing someone into sex? I start out by talking to the men in my life that I trust the most.

KAITLIN'S FATHER: Shall the guilty remain nameless or what?

KAITLIN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's hard because you're my dad. Do you know what I mean?

KAITLIN'S FATHER: It's fine. Whatever.

KAITLIN: Okay, so tell me the story.

KAITLIN'S FATHER: Long story was I had a real crush on this girl. She got pretty drunk. So I went down and snuggled up. And I was rubbing her sides and then we kissed a little bit, but that was the extent of it. You know, nothing too, too serious by today's standards, but by then that was a big deal.

KAITLIN'S FATHER: At that time.

KAITLIN: What was the big deal?

KAITLIN'S FATHER: Feeling her up, you know? Yeah. And enjoying that, plus she was wearing a furry sweater, which was really nice, you know? Anyway, I still remember it. Anyway, but it was not -- it was not mutual, so ...

KAITLIN: When did you know that she was upset about it?

KAITLIN'S FATHER: Oh, the day after. We heard through the grapevine. We didn't have texting or Facebook then, but you heard pretty quick through the grapevine, yeah, that it -- she was very unhappy about what had happened, and felt abused or taken advantage of. And our relationship was never the same after that. I went and apologized, but that was -- there was no coming back from that. And so I felt regretful and paid for it, because we were no longer friends after that.

KAITLIN: This is a best friend of mine.

KAITLIN'S FRIEND: As soon as I knew that sex wasn't an option, I became a bit of a dick. I got kind of cold and, like, not really communicative or -- yeah, I just became, like, a stereotypical dick. And I became, like, grumpy. And had this really like "fuck this" attitude. Like, "Oh, if I'm not getting what I'm -- what I came here for, then, like, nah." I guess I'm lucky that I got this, like, really intense, detailed email from her, you know, breaking down what I did, why it was bad, how much it hurt her, how it affected her for, like, days after. And -- and I'm not gonna lie, I also had that reaction which you've described. This, like, initial reaction of, like, "Ugh. You're, like, over-exaggerating."

KAITLIN: This is my first love.

KAITLIN: Well, I remember you told me this story of the -- this one night that you had with this woman. Can you tell me that story?

KAITLIN'S FIRST LOVE: I can tell you that story. So, um, we were dancing. We were drinking. She ended up getting really drunk. And her friends were, like, definitely putting down the collective foot, saying that no, I shouldn't sleep with her tonight. That she was too drunk. And she -- she's like, "I want you to come over." Went over to her place and was in bed with her and we were making out and it was getting heavy. She could feel that I was, like, moving in. She kind of like -- it was like, "No, no." Like, just kind of like a whisper. Like, kind of keeping it sexy, but, like, saying, like, "No," you know?

KAITLIN'S FIRST LOVE: I felt kind of confused because that night, like, you know, we were out and she invited me over to her house. And for me, that's, like, a message that she wants to hook up, that, like, she wants something to happen. Otherwise, like, why invite the person you've been making out with all night over to your place at, like, 4:00 in the morning, unless, like, you're looking to, like, fool around a bit more. And so, like, I remember, like, kinda getting off of her, just lying there for a bit feeling kind of disappointed, then, like, started making out again, fooling around again. It was kind of like the same process. It happened and, like, after doing that for, I don't know, maybe 20 minutes, like, I, like, got back on top and was kind of making the same moves and she didn't say no. There wasn't that point of interjection where she like said no before. And, like, so I just went for it, because I was, like, stupid and young. And I feel like it's wrong now, you know? Like, I feel like she had said no before, and, like, I should have just been really vocal about, like, communicating boundaries, and, like, seeing what she wanted for the night, you know?

KAITLIN: Like, do you think that there was a moment where you stopped thinking about what she wanted and was focusing mostly on what you wanted?

KAITLIN'S FIRST LOVE: Yeah. I mean, I feel like probably the entire encounter, I was thinking what I wanted as opposed to what she wanted. I mean, I thought that what she wanted was the same thing as what I wanted. And you know, when it wasn't that way, I felt like I was trying to make it that way.

JAD: In this episode, Kaitlin goes on to speak to a whole collection of other guys who all describe different flavors of the same experience. Of gently pushing -- sometimes not so gently -- past that first "No." We're going to skip over some of that and jump forward a few minutes, because eventually Kaitlin does end up convincing Jay to speak with her on tape.

KAITLIN: Yeah. I mean, well, what were you thinking?

JAY: That you should start.

KAITLIN: Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. But when you gave me the option, I was like, was there an alternative? I mean, I would love an alternative. Should we ...

JAY: Not starting would be the alternative.

KAITLIN: This is Jay. The real one. No re-enactments, no actors. It's been three years since we had that shitty hook-up that inspired this entire series. I knew that after interviewing all of these men, that he was the one I really needed to talk to. I procrastinated calling him for months. He definitely knows that I was upset, but I don't think he knows exactly why. And in this interview, I have to tell him why. I'm afraid. I'm afraid of the same thing I was afraid of that night. I'm afraid of silencing myself to avoid an uncomfortable moment. I'm afraid that he's going to convince me that my feelings are illegitimate. And I'm afraid that he'll be a jerk. Over the years, Jay has become kind of a monster in my head. A stereotype. He's morphed into a combination of every man I've ever felt sexually coerced by. He's become the poster boy of fake feminist men who think they're feminist because they took some courses in college and really love women. My friend Jay is gone. I don't even know who that person is anymore. But a part of my heart opens when he says yes to doing this interview. I can tell that he doesn't really want to do it. I can tell that he's doing it because he wants to help me out. He could sense how much I really wanted him to say yes.

JAY: Yes, so what if -- I don't know, why don't you ...

KAITLIN: I mean, should we do the hard part first or the easy part first?

KAITLIN: Well, I mean, I feel quite nervous about talking about, like, me and you and stuff, you know? I know. Why do you have to make that face? Is that face because you feel like it's stupid, or is that face like ...

JAY: No, it's not stupid. It's -- of course it's valid. It's, like, it's legit. But I just -- I don't know, doesn't it feel like such a small thing.

KAITLIN: But see, I think that that's the thing is that it feels so much bigger to me than it does to you, I think.

JAY: I know. I really knew you were going to say that. [laughs] I just saw it coming.

JAY: No. Is it? I mean, it's gotta be. Whatever. I also just don't feel like me just rehashing every -- it's just so much work. Can't we just -- can't we just move on? Like, really -- is it really that big a deal? Like, honestly?

KAITLIN: I mean, the thing is it's not that ...

JAY: 'Cause it can't be. In your daily life, like, can this really follow you around?

KAITLIN: I mean, there's, like, the honest answer to that question, and then there's the answer to that question which is, like, me really wanting to not make you feel bad. Do you know what I mean?

JAY: To my thinking, it's just like in all of our friendship, knowing what you know about me, don't I get a pass for one infraction of this line? I just -- like, stupid -- I just was a drunken fool. Like -- like, pushed over. All sort -- and just made such a big mistake. And I get that it was a big mistake, but it was a mistake, and it was like one -- and like, you know, would it be so bad? I'm not asking you to get over it. But just, like, in the abstract, if you think about other -- like, another friendship, not ours. Would it be so bad to just get over that one thing, you know? Like, does it really warrant becoming baggage for so many years?

JAY: I don't know. That could also just be me, since I'm the one who fucked up. But I also think you fucking over-reacted so, you know? I don't know.

JAY: And you also, like, haven't talked to me for years until now you need something, right?

KAITLIN: My giggling tells me that I'm nervous. But I know that in this moment I'm also relieved that we're getting right into it. Looking him in the eye through the computer, seeing into his bedroom, watching him angle the camera so that the light's flattering. The dude bro monster melts away, and I'm just chilling with my friend Jay, about to have a pretty intimate conversation. It's kind of nice. I'm not scared of him anymore. What I'm scared of is that I won't have the courage to say what I need to say. But I start to try.

KAITLIN: Yeah, that's true. That's true.

KAITLIN: Fair point. But I have to say that, like, I didn't remember you ever saying sorry, or like acknowledging my feelings about it. Or even just saying sorry. Like, I just didn't remember you saying sorry. Like, I felt like I really trusted you as a friend, and that, like, I said I don't really want to touch junks, and then you kept trying to -- you kept junk-touching. And putting my hand on your junk and stuff like that. You know what I mean? And telling me to touch your junk, and, like, and I kept trying to sort of like push back, you know what I mean? Like in a nice way.

KAITLIN: At this point, I talk for about 10 minutes straight. I tell him all of it. And he just listens, wincing here and there. I tell him what he did, how it made me feel. I tell him about Trevor Smalls and the blowjob in the basement. I tell him that he'd said and did things that had brought me back there. I tell him he made me feel like a means to an end.

JAY: Yeah, okay. I don't -- yeah, I get that. I don't know what else to say. It would have been nice to have had this conversation then, right? Like, after it happened. Because like you said too, it's -- it's like then we jerked off in front of each other, and I was -- yeah, I was, like, a super-pushy drunk hook-up guy. But that's all I was. I wasn't basement guy.

JAY: And like -- no, no. But hear me out. I understand that it just -- it pushes, and it's like I heard everything you've said. That you just said. Like, I heard it all. I guess it -- what's frustrating is, like, the fact that there is trauma that then compounds, that's, like, a fact. But it would be nice to know, like -- like, which specific ones were getting added to -- me. Because, like, I know I pushed you back there, but then those things that you experienced are not what happened necessarily? I don't ...

KAITLIN: Yeah. I mean, I think that, like it's ...

JAY: But there's not even much of a difference at that point.

KAITLIN: But that's the thing. Like, I guess it did feel ...

JAY: But, like, that was enough -- that was enough for you to just, like, write me off? Like, where do I get to draw the line and be like, well, you know what? That's not me. Like, I'm not all those other people. I'm sorry that this had -- that, like, we got drunk together and that I tried to do hand stuff and you didn't want to, and then it ended up with us doing hand stuff next to one another, and then I'm sorry that still drunkenly I was a dick. And then I'm sorry that drunkenly I said a bad thing. And, you know, I'm sorry for all that. But it's like, how bad do I have to feel? One thing is, like, parsing out where I end and, like, all the other terrible dudes in the world begin, which is a frustrating thing for a young man to deal with. Fuck, man. Also, like, haven't I done my time? Like, do I really have to feel like I haven't gotten to talk to you for years now because of it. Like, how much guilt do I really have to have?

KAITLIN: See? You're making me feel bad.

JAY: Okay. No, I just want to know.

JAY: You're making me feel bad.

KAITLIN: We talked for about an hour and a half total. I'll spare you all the details. Mostly, we just kept circling back around the same point: why it shouldn't be that big of a deal. I realized that I never got a chance to ask what his inner monologue was of that night. Or what larger personal and social contexts might have been at play. But I wasn't silent. I stood my ground. And I fought for the legitimacy of my feelings.

KAITLIN: But I felt like you missed some of my cues. You were pushy. Most women are dealing with some degree of sexual trauma. It feels like the right thing to look at it through the lens of being a dude. There's something slippery about isolating specific sexual activity. This one's worse than that one. If a friend of mine says that they're upset, my first reaction is to be like, "Oh my God. What the fuck did I do?" I'm so sorry, times a thousand. And I didn't feel that from you. Suddenly to you I was just, like, a means to an end.

KAITLIN: It still makes me angry that I had to fight so hard for the legitimacy of my feelings in the first place. And when I start cutting the interview, I start to hear how accusatory his voice sounds.

JAY: Yeah, Kaitlin. I mean, it sucks. Like, I had fucked up.

KAITLIN: Instead of talking about why he was a jerk that night, we talk about why I'm a jerk for being upset about it. I hear how each of his apologies were paired with a rebuttal of the entire premise of the conversation. Like, this is not what an apology sounds like.

JAY: I'm sorry that still drunkenly I was a dick. And, you know, I'm sorry for all that. But it's like, how bad do I have to feel?

KAITLIN: This is what an apology sounds like.

TOMMY: Kaitlin, I'm so sorry. I mean, I -- I fucked up.

KAITLIN: That's Tommy. The actor who played Jay in the last episode. I hired Tommy to pretend to be Jay for one more day. And I tried out what it would feel like to do more than just explain myself politely and tactfully, but to actually get angry.

KAITLIN: It was your fault.

TOMMY: I'm -- I'm realizing that now. That ...

KAITLIN: Do you know why it was your fault? I'm going to -- I'm going to tell you why it was your fault. You are a fucking asshole! It's fucked up that you belittle the way that I feel about this, just because we didn't have penetrative sex. You were mean to me! Fucking me. You hurt my feelings, and you won't even fucking apologize in a real apologizing way about it. If I fucking hurt your feelings, I would feel like shit about it. You don't feel like shit about it. You treated me like a fucking Barbie doll. I was taught from birth to put what you want before what I want, and it's your fucking job to be sensitive to that. You perform masculinity really fucking well. You're doing a great job at it. You're a man and I hate you for it. You have all the fucking privilege cards. You treated me like shit. You're acting like I've wronged you. I fucking hate you and your kind.

JAD: Wow. Okay, so you made that -- that documentary that we just heard, a big excerpt of. That was -- that was a few years ago at this point.

JAD: Have you spoken with Jay since then? Have you revisited that -- that conversation at all?

KAITLIN: Uh, I wish. I mean, like, it's -- I would -- I would love -- I would love to have a kind of, like, a closing-out conversation with him. I did check in with him over the course of the whole production. And I sent him the cuts before they went out. And I just keep reaching out to him saying, "Do you want to talk?" He doesn't want to talk. He's not answering.

JAD: So Kaitlin's stories for The Heart, which we would encourage you to listen to, you can find the whole thing -- we only played bits and pieces of it. You can find the entire series -- well worth a listen at TheHeartRadio.org. We'll also link you to it from Radiolab.org. Now, what's interesting is that Kaitlin made that series well before #MeToo. And after we listened, we just ended up, like, having a bunch of questions. Like, where are things at now? Like, the conversations around consent, in the moment of consent. The aftermath conversations like the one she had with Jay. How are those happening or not happening now? And we took all these questions and we walked them around a little bit. Talked to a series of academics, app makers, BDSM practitioners. Many, many roomfuls of college-aged men and women. And in the next two episodes, we're gonna bring you in on some of those conversations. Kaitlin will also join us for some of them. In the meantime, I want to sincerely thank her for allowing us to share her work. Definitely check out her new podcast called The Shadows.

JAD: Also want to thank Kaitlin's team that helped her producing the No series for The Heart. Kaitlin wrote and directed what you heard. She also had help from editors Sharon Mashihi and Mitra Kaboli. Assistant producers Ariel Hahn and Phoebe Wang. And associate sound design and music composition from Shawnee Avaram. Okay, we will be back next week with more. 'Til then, I'm Jad Abumrad. Thanks for listening.

ANSWERING MACHINE: To play the message, press 2. Start of message.

KAITLIN: Hi, I'm Kaitlyn. It's Kaitlyn. Hello. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad, and is produced by Soren Wheeler. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Maria -- Maria -- Maria Natasha Padilla is our Managing Director. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusick, David Gebel, Bethel Habte -- Bethel Habte, Tracy Hunte, Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Latif Nasser -- Nasser -- Nasser, Malissa O'Donnell, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters and Molly Webster. With help from Shima Oliaee, Katz Laslow, and Moe Asabiamo. Our fact-checker is Michelle Harris. The end.

ANSWERING MACHINE: End of message.

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In the No Part 1 | Radiolab | WNYC Studios

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RADIOLAB SHOW INTRO] JAD ABUMRAD: Let's just start the beginning. How did this series -- I know it's ancient history for you already, but how did it come about? What was the sort of spark for it?

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heart beating
Crow
Foot Step
Door Creak

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sounds with classroom backgrounds , or for emphasis on a teaching point like a crowd cheering or asking questions, clapping, showing suprise, or a job well done, positive reinforcements

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Banana for comics - Laura

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heart beat
opening door
walking
knock
waves
tap on a surface

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1. "In lieu of a written report, create a podcast."

2. "Create soundscapes for each major biome, using a variety of sounds to identify characteristics, flora, and fauna."

3. "Compare and contrast articulation, intonation, tone, & pronunciation of recordings."

4. "Record instructions for a recipe and include sound effects."

5. "Students can express how they feel using the Loops Library and instruments."

Five favorites from "Inspiration & Lesson Plans" https://padlet.com/calexaki1/6ljd7u0ghnjfbhgo

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The economy, explained, with stories and surprises. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, "Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy." Now imagine that's actually a fun evening. That's what we're going for at Planet Money. People seem to like it.

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Raven, heartbeat, door creeks, wind,

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The Moth

"Stories told live and without notes."

You will laugh, you will cry, and you can even go to LIVE Moth shows in NYC 🙌
https://themoth.org/

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Moth Radio Extra

A special Veterans Day edition of The Moth Radio Hour. This special hour is hosted by The Moth's Producing Director, Sarah Austin Jenness. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by The Moth and Jay Allison of Atlantic Public Media.

Mike Scotti finds new meaning after returning from active duty in the Middle East.

Dawn Seymour becomes part of the Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP), training young men stateside to enter WWII overseas.

Bill Krieger tucks his daughter in at night before being deployed to Iraq.

William Cole serves as a radio operator in the 93rd Infantry Division, a segregated unit, in the South Pacific.

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The Moth | The Art and Craft of Storytelling

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Moth Radio Extra A special Veterans Day edition of The Moth Radio Hour. This special hour is hosted by The Moth's Producing Director, Sarah Austin Jenness. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by The Moth and Jay Allison of Atlantic Public Media. Mike Scotti finds new meaning after returning from active duty in the Middle East.

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Heart beating sound

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Freakonomics

"Freakonomics Radio tells you things you always thought you knew (but didn’t) and things you never thought you wanted to know (but do)."

https://freakonomics.com/archive/

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Heartbeat

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This American Life

"An entertaining kind of journalism that’s built around plot."

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/

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Mostly we do journalism, but an entertaining kind of journalism that's built around plot. In other words, stories! Our favorite sorts of stories have compelling people at the center of them, funny moments, big feelings, surprising plot twists, and interesting ideas. Like little movies for radio.

Our show is heard by 2.2 million listeners each week on over 500 public radio stations in the U.S., with another 2.5 million people downloading each episode as a podcast. We're usually one of the five top podcasts on iTunes. We're also heard on radio stations in Ireland and Germany, and all across Canada and Australia.

If you're brand new to our show, you might start with the list of episodes our host Ira Glass put together called " New to This American Life?" We've been on the air since 1995, so you can also browse through our Recommended lists or our entire archive of more than 600 episodes.

We view the show as an experiment. We try things. There was the show where we taped for 24 hours in an all-night restaurant. And the show where we put a band together from musicians' classified ads. And the show where every story had been pitched by our own parents, who - wonderful as they are - are not very talented at spotting good radio stories. We did an episode on Afrofuturism and an episode wandering around Paris with David Sedaris. Nikole Hannah-Jones reported an episode telling the recent history of Michael Brown's high school in Ferguson, Missouri, and making the case for an educational policy that's been out of favor for years: school desegregation. One of our most popular episodes explained the 2008 economic collapse as it was starting to unfold. This episode spawned another entire program called Planet Money. We've done live shows onstage, and you can watch some of them, including one where Lin-Manuel Miranda turned one of our stories into a mini-musical.

We've spun off two podcast series, Serial and S-Town. More are on the way. For two seasons on Showtime, in 2007 and 2008, we made a TV version of the radio show, which won three Emmys (you can find it on Amazon Prime, iTunes, and Hulu), and then we asked to be taken off television. We've produced several films, including Mike Birbiglia's Sleepwalk with Me and Don't Think Twice, and Come Sunday, which is based on the " Heretics " episode of our show.

Back in 1999, the American Journalism Review declared that the program was "in the vanguard of a journalistic revolution" and since then, a generation of podcasts and radio shows have sprung up - Radiolab, Invisibilia, StartUp, Reply All, Snap Judgment, Love + Radio, Heavyweight - building on the lessons we learned about narrative journalism and inventing all sorts of things we never could've.

Our show is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX, Public Radio Exchange.

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Mostly we do journalism, but an entertaining kind of journalism that's built around plot. In other words, stories! Our favorite sorts of stories have compelling people at the center of them, funny moments, big feelings, surprising plot twists, and interesting ideas. Like little movies for radio.

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heart beat

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Laura Duarte Julio Rameriz

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Malak or Reem